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Post by Heather on Mar 22, 2009 16:25:18 GMT -5
Ok, some of your loose stools have to do with cooked meats, or at least anything that I've checked into. I love your mix of meats, good diversity You might try using some ground egg shell to replace some of the minerals you're not adding when you removed the bones from your mix. I don't like bone meals...but people use them (most of the trace minerals have been cooked out of them, I'm also not familiar with their interactions. Meaning that I don't know if you feed it wether it will help solid up your poopy situation and I'm not familiar with amounts needed. Llullu's reaction is rather typical, it's a texture thing, but she swallowed it and that's good. I find that if I keep at it and eventually she will recognise it as food. Ahhh, I'm sorry that Oatmeal ate around the food on the spoon but you're working at it and so is he. I found that my guys would eventually eat it off the spoon, again, try putting a little piece in his mouth and see how he does. All things being equal, he will probably gag It's very normal and a customary reaction to the different texture of the meat. Cartilage is very good for them, almost as good as the bone, so yes if they'll eat it go for it. Morphia's reaction is odd. It's human condition to vomit raw blood but not a carnivore. Does Morphia eat the soupy? Ok, lets get Morphia (if she does eat the soupy) and Anna to switch like I do finicky kitties. Take the soupy, measure out an amount that you think they will eat (I don't want you to waste more food than necessary) take a small amount of raw meat, ground preferrably (if your mix comes as ground rmb then use that). I'm talking less than 1/4 tsp, run it through the blender and let them eat it. No, it won't seem like a discernable amount but it will slightly alter the flavour. Do that for a couple of days, then add 1/2 tsp...process the same way. Let them get comfortable, watch Morphia and make sure she doesn't vomit this mix (that concerns me, ferrets don't normally vomit) If you want to work Oatmeal into this then do so and we'll see if we can flip him this way too. If we cannot get this to work, then we will try a totally different tack. There are as many ways to switch ferrets as there are ferrets and we've only investigated one. If we can't get them to take up and notice within the next little while then we will try something totally different. ok? I will check in with you later ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 22, 2009 21:38:23 GMT -5
Morphia, Anna, and Skit are my cats. Morphia's always had a sensitive stomach (plus she's 12 years old, but I was hoping it would be ok). She tried soup a long time ago, but vomited. She and Anna will lick at frozen soup cubes, but won't eat them once they've been thawed (don't ask - I have NO idea). I have tried putting just a little bit of soup over their kibble as a gravy, but they won't touch the kibble when I do that. As for the ferrets, they didn't eat the soup I left for them last night (with the chopped meat/bone/cartilage). Tonight I made the soup, but just added the normal ground meat, a chunk of bone-in meat, and pumpkin. I was happy to see that Oatmeal was the LAST one at the bowl tonight (I suspect he likes the taste of pumpkin). He also stashed the spoon, and I think he may have tried to stash the bowl itself (I heard it moving, and when I came back, it was next to the cage ramp - about a foot and a half from where I'd left it). I put the soup in the cage with them for the evening. I'm also wondering if I'm giving Keller too much mouse (I don't mean too, but if he's the only one eating them, that's an awful lot of rats and mice for one fert). While cleaning up their room, I came across some poo that looked like undigested organs. I also cleaned up some stuff that looked a lot like what Keller had regurgitated the other night. I don't know. I'm trying to go slowly, but I don't know if I'm going too slow, or not slow enough
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Post by Heather on Mar 22, 2009 22:55:25 GMT -5
How many mice are you feeding Keller? My guys only eat about 1 to 1 1/2 mice each during an 8 hr period. Attila might eat 2....he weighs almost 5 lbs, Loki (the little fellow who is stealing the dinner bowl in the pic) who weighs about 4 lbs eats about 1 to 1 1/2 mice. Ten of them take about 4 hrs to totally clean up a rat (juvenile or smaller adult) They will get 2 if that's all I'm going to give them. If you have too many, freeze them. My guys eat ratcicles (I get from a local supplier) and the mice I let them have a mass hunting and freeze most of them allowing them to each have a mouse when the job is done. Ooops, got the cats mixed up with the ferts... ok....I'm gathering that you don't have a moist cat food that your guys like. Samurai, my finicky siamese sounds like Morphia. He was 12 yrs old when his brother passed on due to complications (kidney failure) caused by diabetes. It was at that point the vet told me that I was killing my kitties with kibble. She wasn't exactly helpful about diet at that point either . Samurai, spent more time vomiting his dinners than actually processing them. He was down to about 7 lbs and loosing ground quickly. My vet gave him about 6 months until he followed his brother maybe sooner. The first part was the hardest. Samurai was a dye in the wool kibble addict, so the first step was to get him on to a moist cat food. So we will work on that step first, raw would be awesome but most cats won't make that leap of faith. What you want to do is find a moist cat food that they will eat or at least taste. I made the mistake of course of buying high end moist....and then discovered that Samurai hated it What I finally did was go into a pet store and buy some of those stupid little sample ones and I bought all brands....Samurai turned out that he liked Fancy Feast Garbage I know but he ate it. So soon as he was eating that consistently I removed the kibbles. Once he was eating that then I started the switch to raw (exactly as I described for the ferts) Way to go Oatmeal A lot of them really enjoy pumpkin (it's a little sweet) feed it to them, it can't hurt. It's not very much and they like it. I've also discovered that though they really can't digest it, it works like the fur they're supposed to be eating if they're eating prey...so it has benefits Stole the spoon, and the bowl...shades of my Loki One thing to consider....I was a little disturbed when I first started feeding my guys prey too was these piles of what looked like fert poo and intestines and some other digested pieces. They turned out to be not fert poo, but rat and mouse innards....they don't like the taste of certain parts and if they're not really hungry they'll just leave it all over the place....really grosse I don't like the fact that someone is vomiting....How's everyone's weight, activity levels? Don't get frustrated, this is very much a trial and error thing. Like I said every ferret's different. It makes it so difficult even for me to tell you what to do. That's why Giuli makes us keep in touch so much. I've got 15 in house ferrets right now, each one required a slightly different touch. Now, I have a method that I use that I've become very comfortable with but that doesn't make it the right method for you. Part of the problem is you've got Keller who is already eating prey and the rest of your guys at different levels along the way. You may have found an mix that will work with your guys just by adding pumpkin. Let me know how it went and if you've found any more vomit piles . You're doing really well, as are your guys. The problem is trying to find the groove that allows them to make the switch. I will check in with you tomorrow and see how everything went ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 23, 2009 20:52:23 GMT -5
I LOVE the pic of Loki! Thanks! As for Keller, I've been putting 1 mouse hopper and 1 rat pup in the cage each night. If there's anything left in the morning, I don't give any more until everything's gone. He's been working on one pup for about 2 days now. I threw it away this evening, and noticed when he woke up he started sniffing around for it. Now, I did catch him pooing, and he has VERY liquid poo. I'm not giving him any mice tonight. NO ONE wanted the soup I had today, and the poops are still very loose and seedy (with 1 exception I just found), but now they're bright orange . I cut up some more quail wings/legs (it seems easier to get through the bone than it did when I was cutting them up for freezing and soup), but no one wanted any. In fact, the tooth grinding started again when I put some pieces in their mouths. Strangely enough, even Keller didn't want the quail bits - he gagged and spit pieces out like he'd never had any before . I finally doused the quail in tone, which was only partially successful. The ferrets would lick up the tone, but not the meat/bones. When I put pieces in my hand, I had to put tone over them 3-4 times before they'd finally get eaten (but, thankfully, Ushba and Llullu finally did eat a few pieces that way, though some pieces they chewed up and spit out). I didn't make as much soup tonight - I only heated up 2 cubes, put a small spoonful of meat, and mixed in the quail bits with tone dressing. Llullu ate a TINY portion, but stashed any piece of meat she came across (I put a paper bag next to the soup bowl so she wouldn't go running under the bed or into the dresser drawers to stash). No vomit piles today(that I've found). Everyone's energy seems good. Oatmeal and Llullu are due for their Lupron shots, so I'll get them weighed when they go in (I don't own a scale) Anna won't touch wet cat food, or any kibble "contaminated" by it. Skit loves the stuff (but she's eating the ground meat mix and RMB, so I'm no longer giving her kibble or canned cat food. In fact, I need to start figuring out how much meat/bones/organs to give her each day). Morphia used to like it, but would vomit if I gave her too much, so now she just licks off the gravy and leaves the meat bits
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Post by Heather on Mar 24, 2009 1:07:48 GMT -5
Ok....the bright orange I have an answer for...that's pumpkin Seedy poopies means that they're having difficulty or aren't absorbing the fat in their diet. I don't like the tooth grinding...that's either stress or pain Am I guessing that your quail was eaten without the benefit of soupy? You mention marinating it in 'tone....have you tried breading it with kibbles? I'd try just a piece of two to see if they actually go for it. It's a thought. I wonder if they're having difficulty digesting both the raw and the cooked?! It seems odd that all of them are getting the same reaction, but I've heard of people having difficulty feeding raw and cooked or kibble at the same time to their furbabies. As you have 2 who are suffering adrenal (are on lupron) perhaps their digestive system is compromised enough that they can't process both the raw and the cooked at the same time. Do you want to try and feed them their soupy without any raw and maybe try feeding their raw meats separate? It means getting them used to eating raw outside the whole soupy thing but it might work and your guys might suffer less digestive difficulties. You can continue to feed your soupy mix but feed it separately from your raw diet. I thought because they were already accepting of the soupy that it would be easier and better for them to start their raw diet by using the soupy. Perhaps, this isn't so, perhaps they're tummies aren't able to absorb both the raw nutrients and the cooked ones. We can try breading or using the tone to get them to eat whole meats and see where this takes us. If you decide to go this route make sure that you feed this separately from your soupy mix and we will see if their poopies firms up. Switching kitties: Here's a list of things to do when trying to switch kitties. It's a list of switches that we use on a list that I moderate. Read it through, give it some thought and see if any of these might work for your hold out kitty. Unlike ferrets, you can't make them eat, though I have dabbed food on Merlyn's nose when he was so ill to try and get him eating again. I'm more than willing to discuss any of these and help see if we can get your little furbaby to switch. Some of these you may have already tried but I thought I would give you the whole list. **On the other hand, you want to be careful that Kitty doesn’t manipulate YOU into serving him what he likes all the time, by refusing everything else! So try different species of raw meats, searing the meat or almost anything else before resorting to his old favs, as variety makes for a less picky cat. Let Kitty set the pace! If kitty wants to switch right away; GO WITH IT! Make SURE they eat something every day - if you have to give them kibble; do it! Cheese, eggs cooked meats are better alternatives if they will eat them. Cats need to be fed several times daily. Two meals are Ok, but 3 or 4 are far better. Try for 2 main meals and a couple of snacks. This means you will feed less at each meal time. Get cat used to regular feeding times. Pick up and put down kibble at meal times. Getting your cat used to the idea that there are 'set' feeding times; that food is not available all the time now teaches him to clean his plate when he has the opportunity First switch kitty to canned foods so s/he becomes accustomed to the wet texture Sprinkle water on kibble. Weeeeee bit at first, then slowwwly increase as he gets used to it Soak Kitties dried food with water or chicken broth It takes time for the digestive system to adapt to having to break down REAL foods, be patient! Yogurt or Probiotics may be necessary for cats with severely neutralized stomach acid. See the QuickStart Guide for further info. Start offering bits and nips of raw, cooked or any kind of unprocessed meat. Start by offering bits of giblet or heart or cubes of meat. I've found the majority of cats prefer chunks rather than ground meat As you prepare meals for yourself or the animals toss them little nips... they think their getting a treat that way. Stolen Booty always tastes better; 'accidentally' drop some on the floor or leave on the counter as you leave the room. Put a little on their paw so they have to lick it off and get used to the taste Put the raw in a cat food can to serve it from, or shake a box of kibble, some cats are conditioned by the sounds to expect their meal soon ;-D Hide small amounts of raw in his regular food and increase gradually Lightly sear or braise meat in frying pan Cook the food and then gradually serve it rawer each time. Lightly sear or braise meat in frying pan BRIBES: Bribe foods should be used for the most part only for the switch; not as a staple of the diet Baby food teaser [be careful to choose organic, no onions!] Feed them together so they feel there is 'competition' for the food; this doesn't work if one cat is submissive to another though, separate bowls in that case Cat Nip crumbled over top Crumbled Salmon Treats Dehydrated tuna sprinkled on top Dried Liver Treats Crumbled over top Gravy made with gelatin and pan drippings Kitty Kaviar – brand name for dehydrated Bonito tuna product Malt sprinkled on top! Nutritional yeast sprinkled on top! Parmesan Cheese Pulverized Kibble sprinkled on top Sardines Tuna Juice Wysong product called "Dentatreat". It's got cheeses, probiotics and vitamins Call Of The Wild (product) raw ground pink salmon raw rabbit quail © Marnie 2004 RawPaws Pet Education Mailing List @ Yahoo! Raise Your Paw 4 Raw** I will check in with you later and we can discuss where you would like to take this Happy reading, and good luck ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 24, 2009 13:15:38 GMT -5
Major setback. I opened the cage about an hour ago to let the fuzzies out. Some of the soup had been eaten, but most was left. I started cutting up some quail for today. A short time later, Keller came wandering into the kitchen. The first thing I noticed was that his coat looked unkempt, which is unusual. He sniffed at the ground meat/quail bits I'd put out for Skit, shook his head, and kept going. He got to the water dish, started drinking, and almost immediately started hacking and shaking his head and pawing at his mouth. I immediately picked him up to check for something stuck. the edge of him mouth was a lot brighter pink than normal, but I didn't see anything in his mouth. I put him back down - he tried to drink again, with the same result. I gave him some fresh water (I've been putting a bit of apple cider vinegar in the water due to fleas, but I gave him just regular water to see if it was the taste that was bothering him. I've noticed that the water in the cage hasn't been disappearing as quickly as normal). He tried to drink the normal water. He didn't react nearly as violently as he had with the vinegar water, but he still pawed at his mouth. I checked again - nothing inside the mouth or stuck on the roof of his mouth. I tried giving him some ground meat. He licked at it, then tried to get away. As the other ferrets came out, I tried giving them each some meat, with no luck. took some kibble and smeared a bit of meat on the kibble. They wouldn't touch it. When I put the kibble down, all but Keller began eating more voraciously than I've seen in days. Keller wouldn't touch the kibble. I made some soup and put some kibble in - everybody dug in (again, except Keller). I added 2 more soup cubes and poured in some hot water, and let it cool. Now Keller is eating a little, but I had to hold him and spoon feed him to get him started. He's only eaten a bite or 2 of the kibble. I'm thawing out a rat pup to see if he'll eat that (I'm wondering if he's decided that rodents are now the only food to eat?). Also, what little poop he had today is bright (grass) green. I know it means stuff's not getting digested, but I'm worried that they've been starving themselves rather than eat. Update (about 3 pm) - Keller just pooped again. Liquid green. Gave him the pup and the hopper - he took them, shook, them, then set then aside. Went back a few minutes later and ate the head of the hopper, then crawled into a nearby bag and seems to be settling down to go back to sleep. 10:51 pm - Still having liquid stools, but I think the color is starting to return to the soup color that it's been for the past few days (a light tan - nothing dark). Before I left for rehearsal (about 5), I made him drink some water with a dropper syringe, because his skin is tenting when I pinch it. Walgreen's didn't have Pedialite, so I'll pick some of that up tomorrow. I did notice him eating Morphia's kibble (DM), so I left that down, along with some of the ferret kibble (Evo Small Red Bites) and water near where he was sleeping. Got home about 10 minutes ago. He'd moved into a closet, where he (and Llullu, surprisingly - I thought I'd put her up) was curled up in a backpack. When I put him in front of the water, he started drinking. Not for very long, but I was glad to see it. I'm thinking about taking him into the vet in the morning. I took some pictures of his poo and will post them shortly. I wish I'd taken pictures of the green stuff
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 24, 2009 22:30:28 GMT -5
The post is getting long, so I'm adding a separate reply for Ushba and Oatmeal. I'd put them in the ferret room while I was gone (I thought Llullu was in there too, but apparently was wrong) with some of their kibble (again, the Evo red bites). Tonight, the poo is firmer, darker, and less seedy than it has been for the past few days. I'll need to check on Llullu separately (fortunately since she's a girl, I can usually tell her poo from the boys')
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Post by Heather on Mar 25, 2009 0:46:22 GMT -5
Ok, we've got some problems. Let's hold off say 2 days. Feed kibbles, let them fill their tummies and let their tummies settle. Let's go at this from a different angle. Take Keller to the vet, there's something seriously wrong here. I don't like the mouth pawing and the bright green poppies. He may have picked up a bug, but I'd sooner rule out health issues. He may have decided that he only wants to eat prey, but this poopy issue had begun before you had been feeding him strictly prey. He may have cut his mouth eating one of his mousies. I would assume that the vomit has been his too. Again I think there is some other issue with Keller other than just diet. We've been going at this with the idea to use something they already know and like. Let's rethink this whole thing. Let's let them continue to eat their soupy but we're not going to use their soupy to switch them. Make up a soupy just like you've been doing before we tried to switch and see if they will eat it again. We will create a raw mix.... I still think that mixing the cooked with the raw is creating tummy upsets. I will check in with you tomorrow and you can tell me if this works for you. You can also fill me in as to how Keller is doing. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 25, 2009 23:41:17 GMT -5
3 of my 4 were VERY happy with the soup tonight. 4 cubes, heated in water, with a scoop of food. I actually poured warm water in as they drank up the broth. They loved it - I could hear them slurping it up, and even caught Oatmeal coming back later for more. Except Keller. He was the one I had to spoon-feed tonight. I tried giving him a bit of raw by itself - he'd lick it off of my fingers, but that's about it. With the soup and the raw, it seemed as if he was eating it just because he knew I wanted him too, rather than because he actually wanted any. I don't even know that he's eating the Evo - although he'll eat the cat food if I leave it down. The mouse I left earlier was also mostly gone - just the tail, hind legs, and intestines were left. I hope you're right about getting his mouth scratched. I can definitely see where vinegar in water would irritate that. I called the vet, but can't get Keller in until Friday (although he is the 1ST appointment Friday morning). All the ferrets were put in their room while I was gone today - tonight when I cleaned up the poops, there were no seedy, light-colored or runny poops, although one had some green in it (I think it was Keller's, but I can't be positive). No vomit, either.
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Post by Heather on Mar 26, 2009 0:06:56 GMT -5
Maybe, they had a virus....it's entirely possible. Keep doing what you're doing and let's see where it leads. It sounds to me like Keller's back to eating too, maybe not what he's used to but he's eating. My guys are always leaving the intestines so I wouldn't worry about that part of it (it's the one disgusting thing about prey feeding ) So everyone ate their soupy...you have to love them Give them great big hugs and tell them to behave themselves Silly little fuzzbutts. Let me know if they continue this roll tomorrow. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 26, 2009 21:30:33 GMT -5
No raw meat or mice today (except a very small bit that Keller licked off my finger). I took the leftover soup from last night, added 2 cubes and some water, heated everything, then added some Pedialyte when the soup cooled down. They ate it all over about an hour and a half (Oatmeal and Ushba came back a few times to make sure everything was gone ). The DM cat food (w/chicken - it's what I saw Keller eating yesterday) was gone; there was some Evo red kibble left. Someone has tan poops (I think it's Keller - the DM is a lighter colored kibble), but there were also dark pudding poops tonight. Since I'm also taking in Oatmeal and Llullu for theire Lupron shots in the morning when Keller goes in, I may just go ahead and take Ushba (or a stool sample from him) and have fecals done on everyone. It depends on what kind of poop is in the cage in the morning. Do you think I should reduce the amount of kibble in the soup tomorrow, or take it out completely? Is there anything else I should discuss with the vet - aside from letting her know that I'm trying to switch to raw (she's already stated her opinion that ferret owners should feed mice to their fuzzies, so I'm not worried about her flipping out over a raw diet)? Thanks
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Post by Heather on Mar 27, 2009 0:06:31 GMT -5
As they're eating the soup rather well, I'd be tempted to only cut back on the kibble. Cut it by half, we'll see how they take it and when they've eaten this without too much difficulty, let's take it out completely and see what happens. You may want to discuss where you're at in the switch with your vet and tell her your goals. She might be able to offer some insight from a medical point of view. I know that my vet was under the misunderstanding that switching ferts was just like switching dogs and was quite surprised as to the difficulty this task can entale. You might also mention the difficulties that you're having with your guys loose stools. I'm not sure she can offer much insight but it's always worth a check and see. My vet and I had quite a long discussion on some of the technicalities involved in designing a diet for the fuzzies and some of the illnesses that plague the furbabies in specific and how they might be directly related to how we feed our furkids. Let me know how everything goes. I will be looking for your follow up post. Talk at you later, good luck. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 27, 2009 9:58:36 GMT -5
Ok - Oatmeal and Llullu got their Lupron, and I asked them to weigh everyone for me. Oatmeal's weight hasn't changed (2.2lbs/.98kg), Llullu's gained a little bit (1.1lb/.5kg to 1.5lbs/.61kg), Keller's lost a little bit (2.3lbs/.99kg to 2lbs/.91kg), and Ushba's gained (2.07lbs/.94kg to 2.3lbs/1.04kg). I explained that the poops are now back to normal (Keller confirmed that by pooping at the office, in fact ), and told the vet about trying to switch them over. She said she's seen ferrets get a bit of diarrhea when moving to a higher protein diet than what they're accustomed to (i.e., moving from Marshall's to a higher quality kibble), and agreed with you that mixing raw meat into cooked soup could be exacerbating the issue. She suggested the same thing you did - back off for a few days, and slow down the switch. I asked her if she had any specific recommendations for switching, and essentially she said just to give them very small pieces here and there until they're accepting it, then slightly increase the amount they're given. So, bottom line - she reiterated what you said. I'm glad it's just digestive issues, and not anything serious
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Post by Heather on Mar 27, 2009 23:04:24 GMT -5
That is indeed a relief. I'm glad that it's not a viral or bacterial issue. It is troubling that it is indeed a food issue but it also means that as their bodies get used to the diet they will start to do better. It's good to also know that they're not, on the whole, loosing a lot of weight despite the loose poopies. Let me know how you want to proceed next and we will work on that. I suggest leaving them eating their usual diet and trying a totally raw soupy. You will probably get a lot of icky looks and gagging (as they're dealing with a flavour and texture that they're not used to but they will be eating only raw at that point.) This way you're not mixing kibbles with your raw meat. It appears that your guys just don't do well eating both at the very same time. It might be a little time consuming to begin with but I find they usually move on reasonably quickly. Let me know how you want to go and I will help you out. I will check in on you tomorrow and see where we go. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 29, 2009 15:20:00 GMT -5
Ok, I want to make sure I understand you correctly before I do it - you think I should remove their kibbles, and try feeding them JUST the raw meat to see how that works? Or am I misunderstanding you?
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