|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 8, 2009 23:16:12 GMT -5
Anna seems to have gone on a hunger strike - she won't touch the Publix canned food I got (though she'd eat the canned Evo and Wellness brands of cat food), and it seems she has convinced Morphia and Skit to join her, as they didn't eat last night's canned food OR this morning's. During my lunch hour, I rushed over to Central Bark (wouldn't you know that the best place for me to find cat/ferret food is at a doggy day care ), back to my house to throw some food in their bowls, then back to work. That said, here's the last few days: Tuesday: Canned meat for cats both AM and PM, Evo Red Bites dog food for Anna in the evening since she wouldn't eat the canned. Kibble in the morning for ferrets, soup with pumpkin at night and kibble left in the cage overnight. Wednesday: Same as Tuesday for cats - with one mouse left in Skit's bowl overnight. Tuesday night's soup all eaten. Same food for ferrets, but soup had 3 mice in it. Thursday: Nothing eaten from cats' bowls in the AM (except mouse (!)), so Morphia and Skit got fresh canned, Anna got dog food. Ferrets - All soup gone, no mice in sight. Noon - rushed in, nothing eaten from ANY cat's bowls. Threw out old food, threw in some Evo cat kibble, ran out the door. PM - Came home to find aforesaid mouse in front of bookshelf with a tiny hole in its side . Let ferrets loose. Mouse disappeared again . Cut up a beef kidney - gave Skit the blood and 1oz kidney. She drank up ALL the blood and hasn't more than licked at the kidney pieces themselves. Threw cat food back in bin, replaced with canned food. Skit started yowling, so I gave her 1 oz of canned rabbit, cut into the kidney (though I noticed that 2 of the 3 pieces had mysteriously disappeared). Anna promptly shoved her face between Skit and the dish and began eating the canned rabbit (maybe she'll get some of that kidney, too). Gave Skit a smaller bit of canned food for her piteous look. Am glad to know that Anna's refusal to eat was based on a dislike of cheap food (though I wish I'd known that before I bought the stuff). Morphia's getting spoiled - I brought her dinner (1 oz canned rabbit) in bed (when the ferrets are out, we close off the bedroom, and she usually goes in there when someone goes to bed), and she started purring when she smelled the rabbit! Also, weighed Keller tonight, since he feels kind of thin to me - he weighs 2lbs 2oz, which is pretty much the same as usual. I just want to make sure everyone's getting what they need to eat. He'll still eat kibble, but given the choice, he definitely prefers raw. Question - Is 2-3% body weight also what I should be feeding to ferrets? and if 10 (?)% of that is organ, should that be fed as a separate meal, or as smaller portions served with muscle meat?
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 9, 2009 0:08:30 GMT -5
I think it's a little higher for ferrets but it's so dependant on so many different variables . Size, age, time of year, how hot it is I think you can use that percentage but I would be tempted to use the higher 3%. How you feed your organ meat can be entirely up to you and your ferrets. I have too many of mine who are finicky as to wether they eat organ meat or not, so I feed it mixed in with their meat. I have one student who creates an organ soupy that she feeds one day along with her bones (helps keep them from having loose poops). If your guys can get the organ meat into your guys that's required once a week then you're doing it right, how it gets there isn't really important. There is no right or wrong way . ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 14, 2009 0:27:42 GMT -5
For the past few days I've been feeding pretty much the same thing for everyone: Skit has been getting duck with a bit of canned duck (although I've noticed that she won't eat a full 1.5 oz in one sitting - which is frustrating, because I can't be there all day to feed her when she gets hungry - Anna has been getting canned duck (it's labeled "dog food," but if it's really 100% meat, then that should be ok, right?). I tried mixing some duck meat into the canned food one night, and she puked. Morphia sometimes gets just plain canned, other times she gets some meat mixed in - and she usually eats it without issue. I leave kibble in the ferret bowl, but Keller gets some meat chunks in the morning (and whatever Skit hasn't eaten in the evening), and everyone gets soup with meat and/or pumpkin (the pumpkin doesn't go in every night). I also throw 2-3 mice in the soup while it's still hot (cools the soup and thaws the mice), and they are usually gone by the following soup time.
I found a poop with a bit of undigested meat. Is that normal?
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 14, 2009 22:46:42 GMT -5
The undigested meat is probably because of your diet mix. Your little ones are trying to digest everything from kibble, canned, cooked meat and raw and sometimes all at the same time. The different rates of digestion of all these components would cause some poor digestive issues that you're seeing. Unfortunately, this is a side component of feeding in this manner. For your goal what you would ultimately want is for them to eat one type of protein (cooked, raw etc) at one meal and then offer a different style of protein at the next. This would then settle the tummy upsets to a minimum. As far as your canned dog food being a good feed....check out your protein levels. They're the only way you can decide if indeed your canned food is cutting your little ones dietary needs. Hope that helped a little
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 18, 2009 10:05:07 GMT -5
The crude protein is "minimum 10%", and the moisture is "max 78%" The canned buffalo isn't going over too well with any of the cats - both Anna and Skit will abandon their bowls in favor of Morphia's rabbit. I'll keep that in mind next time I have to get canned food - I was just going for a little variety. Last night Skit had some liver and gizzards - she ate the liver right away, but later I heard her chewing on the gizzards (I checked, and it WAS her, not Keller), and she eventually finished them off. Morphia still won't eat any raw meat unless it's mixed with canned food, but when I do mix it, she eats it - I find canned food left over, but no raw when she walks away . Anna only eats the canned - usually Skit finishes the meat off (although the other night I saw Morphia eating out of Anna's bowl, and seemed to suffer no ill effects from eating the buffalo. I'm trying to be careful, though, just in case) I'll take the kibble out of their cage - I'd been leaving it in because Ushba and Llullu aren't eating meat consistently yet, and I didn't want to starve them. Maybe that will encourage them to eat, though. If I can get them switched over, I can take any leftover kibble to the ferret shelter or to the Wildlife Center where I work. I haven't tried giving the ferrets any of the canned food, but I know that they've sniffed at it and moved on when they find it in the cat bowls I've noticed that Dr. Fosters and Smith sell freeze dried lungs and other dried meats - have you ever tried any of that kind of food?
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 18, 2009 17:02:56 GMT -5
The protein level seems awfully low to feed a ferret but I double checked the protein level on a moist cat food can that I have and it said 11%. It does seem low for ferrets, but if it's not a major component I guess it wouldn't make that big a deal. Ahhh, but variety is the key and they will eat it (bison)...they just prefer rabbit. That's not a bad thing. To feed it occasionally to provide a different bit of protein and therefore covering a greater amount of trace minerals. They might not like your idea on a choice of food but feed it as everyone can and does eat it Even Morphia kept it down, and you probably won't feed it often so it might work as a food alternative until raw becomes your primary diet, instead of secondary. Don't give that kibble away until you're absolutely sure that they won't go on a hunger strike. Just put it away, in a top shelf or somewhere so that you won't use it just because it's easier to prepare but know that it's still available if problems arise. You're progressing this is great. Anna appears to be our major stick in the mud. I've never used dried meats, most of the brand names that you can get in the US aren't available up here. The one thing that Giuli told me is that you have to remember to add water and rehydrate the dried meats that you use. Seemingly, ferrets lack the ability to rehydrate their food efficiently and this can become an issue if they eat large quantities of it (it will actually swell and cause blockages) This problem won't occur if it's added to water and allowed to rehydrate. I know that there are some people who do feed it. If you want, post your question about the brand names to the forum and see if you can get any hits about what issues or if anyone has tried them. ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 18, 2009 22:05:43 GMT -5
I actually did post the question about freeze-dried foods, and the responses basically boiled down to "depends on the animals' individual tastes" and that it's ok "as a treat." So I guess I'll have to try and see. I'll keep in mind about reconstituting in water, though.
I'll set the kibble away (We both do tend to use it when we're in a hurry or just woke up). Great news, though - when we came in tonight, Skye put out some kibble. I saw this, poured the kibble out of Skit's bowl, and replaced it with rabbit meat (not canned - real meat). I few minutes later, I saw that Morphia had passed up her bowl of kibble in favor of Skit's rabbit!!! She didn't eat all of it, but she ate enough that I had to put out some more for Skit! Now if I can just get Anna, Llullu, and Ushba to eat meat without having to hide it in something.
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 18, 2009 22:36:56 GMT -5
That's wonderful Yay, Morphia...she knows what's good for her It's all about learning to eat good foods and feeling better with what they're eating. Sometimes it takes longer to make the switch but if we persevere we can win the war Each little battle takes us closer to our goals. Good luck. ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 21, 2009 22:07:43 GMT -5
Of, course, now that I've bragged about Morphia eating the meat from Skit's bowl, she won't eat it when I put it in hers Also, I've put out some giblets yesterday and today, and Keller will now eat them. I think Skit's eaten them once, but it was only after I refused to give her anything else. It's getting time to go to the store again - I keep looking for meat and am only finding organs
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 21, 2009 23:32:15 GMT -5
But...she still ate it you can't blame a cat for not eating it exactly how you want her to Stolen food tastes much better . That's great news that Keller will now eat the gibblets. Great work...good stuff. ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Oct 29, 2009 19:45:41 GMT -5
I took Llullu in for her Lupron shot, and she's been gradually losing weight over the past few months. My vet took a fecal from her (and a sample I brought in from the boys) and found a lot of a particular bacteria - I need to call back and get the exact name again - which she says is a result of some sort of imbalance. She's been very supportive of my attempt to switch the ferrets, but after the fecal, she is concerned that since they haven't been on raw their entire lives it may be causing issues. What are your thoughts on this?
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Oct 30, 2009 1:59:19 GMT -5
I've never encountered it but it's entirely possible as anything is indeed possible. I've fed lymphoma ferrets on raw without any difficulty. Little Babushka was 9 yrs old when she was switched over. She's now 11. The lymphomas ferrets were raised on kibbles same as most of my guys as they're all rescues. What is the bacterial infection? How is she treating it? What does she feel you should do? and how do you feel about it? Was it only Llullu that was diagnosed with this infection or does your whole business have it? Get back to me ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Nov 4, 2009 0:36:58 GMT -5
She said it was Clostridium, but didn't tell me the specific type, and it came up in both samples that I gave her (one from Llullu, and the other from one or both of the boys). She's not treating it at the moment - she wants to see if returning them to their old diets will restore the proper balance of gut bacteria. I'm not sure how I feel, honestly. If the balance can be restored without pumping them full of antibiotics, I would certainly prefer that route. I would wonder if it was related to the raw meat sitting out, but I got the impression that you don't have that problem - certainly not if your ferrets are eating their own "home-made" jerky. Then again, how hot does Canada get in the summer? Surely not as hot as Miami? Could heat/humidity have anything to do with the raw meat affecting bacterial levels?
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Nov 4, 2009 2:31:26 GMT -5
Summers are hot enough that air conditioning is a necessary commodity if you've got ferrets.....The house is normally kept at about 70 to 75 degrees....20 to 23 celcius up here Their outdoor play area can reach well over 100 degrees or 30 + celcius during the heat of the day during the summer. The humidity is usually the problem during the summer making it feel much warmer than it really is. Of course living in Florida you would encounter such heat as well, we just don't get that type of heat now . I've done a bit of reading....this is what I"ve found * Clostridium perfringens (C. perfringens) is a spore-forming bacterium. Spores can survive normal cooking temperatures. They grow when cooked food is kept in the temperature "danger zone" - between 4°C (40°F) and 60°C (140°F). * The spores can be found in soil, dust, sewage and in the intestinal tracks of animals and humans. * They only grow when exposed to little or no oxygen. * C. perfringens produces a toxin in the intestinal tract when people eat food containing a high concentration of the bacteria. * This organism can be found in many foods, particularly in high protein or high starch foods like cooked beans and gravies. * It is especially likely to be a problem in improperly handled leftovers due to problems with cooling and reheating. From what I can gather, this has to do with leaving cooked foods out, not raw. Are you heating their raw foods? or giving them partially cooked foods? This may be why they're getting an overgrowth of this particular bacterium. You may actually find this in their canned foods?? I wondered why I wasn't familiar with this bacteria and it's usually related to cooked or partially cooked foods. I agree that if you can restore their gut bacteria to normal levels without antibiotics would indeed be more beneficial but can this actually be done. What does she suggest that you go back to? It may be that your guys aren't tolerating the mix of kibble and raw which in some ferrets causes an overgrowth of bacteria. That is not something I've ever had a problem with as I don't use kibble at all. I do know that some of our members do mix without any real issues that they've reported. Where do you want to go now? ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Nov 4, 2009 9:35:37 GMT -5
Ok, great - I didn't find that information when I looked it up, but I was also exhausted and probably didn't look long enough. The ferrets haven't been eating any of the canned, so I would need to run a fecal on the cats to see if the canned food is an issue (though I REALLY wish Skit would start losing weight - nothing is working it seems). However, I had been putting bits of meat into their soup - I tried to wait until the soup cooled off before putting the raw in, but it's possible that the small chunks still got partially cooked. Also, I was leaving the soup in their cage overnight to let them finish it. I'll stop doing that - whatever they don't finish in a sitting will be thrown away. Keller is still getting chunks of meat (chicken at the moment - I don't have the time or the money for a variety just now. We'll have to see where we stand after paying all the bills next payday). When I take Llullu in for her Lupron in a few weeks, we'll run another fecal, and I'll bring in another sample from the boys (separated this time). I the bacteria hasn't gone down, we'll start on the antibiotics, and I have to figure out how to do probiotics with ferrets.
We keep our house at 78-79 degrees F. I'd like to continue trying with the raw, but it looks like putting raw bits into the soup is risky (or is it ok if it's eaten right away?). Llullu and Ushba won't eat the raw by itself - it's still hit and miss when I put it in their soup. Morphia is still (VERY) occasionally stealing raw chicken from Skit - though I did find vomit the other day, so I don't know how long that's going o continue - so maybe I can still get her switched to other kinds of meat. what's your opinion?
|
|