|
Post by faunafreak on Feb 23, 2009 13:09:53 GMT -5
1. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names, ages, genders, and do they have any health problems (this is VERY important)? 4 - Oatmeal: 4 years/M/deaf, adrenal, chronic poo issues (i.e., seedy poo, mucousy poo, occasional stress-related diarrhea), possible chicken allergy. Keller: about 5 years (?)/M/blind & deaf/no known issues. Ushba: about 3 years/M/had "pudding poo" when I got him last Sunday - has cleared up, but still loose and mucousy. Llullu: about 2.5 years/F/displaying beginning symptoms of adrenal, currently being treated for vaginitis (sp?) 2. What are your ferrets currently eating? Include their main diet, plus any treats or supplements (such as duk soup). Evo Red Small Bites supplemented w/soup (rabbit, duck, quail, H2O, kibble and Bone Meal powder w/Vitamin B12 supplement). Sometimes Totally Ferret Turkey/Venison formula is mixed in. Ushba and Llullu were on Wysong Vitality, but have shown a preference for the Evo. Ferretone offered as a treat. Keller gets an occasional thawed mouse (he's the only one who'll even touch them right now, or they'd all be getting mice) 3. What kind of diet do you want to switch to? Raw/whole prey 4. Why do you want to switch to this more natural diet? Have heard many good things from owners whose pets eat raw, and my veterinarian has also stated that she would prefer her clients to feed more whole prey (preferably mice) to their ferrets 5. Where/what/who got you interested in natural diets? Have been interested for some time for myself and my pets. Can't remember exactly when - I've been toying with the idea for several years now, but never was able to actually switch over 6. Please list the current weight for your ferret(s). Do they appear overweight? Underweight? How is there muscle tone? Oatmeal: 2.2 lbs (.98kg), Keller: 2.3 lbs (.99kg), Llullu: 1.1 lb (.5kg), Ushba: 2.07 lbs (.94kg). Vet says all are at average with & have decent muscle tone (Llullu is petitie & a bit more "squishy" than the others) 7. What is the condition of your ferret's teeth/gums? (can you get a picture?) Keller has an ugly tooth, but recently had a dental scaling. Oatmeal has slight tartar buildup. Oatmeal, Llullu, & Ushba have black spots on back molars. Llullu: Oatmeal: Usbha: Keller: 8. Describe the texture/color of your ferrets coat. Oatmeal: White w/silver markings; yellow spots on cheeks, yellowish cast around shoulder blades and tail. Currently shedding - coat is generally smooth with little roughness. Incoming summer coat softer/shorter. Keller: Ruby-eyed white. Yellowish cast to fur. Fur is thick w/some roughness. Llullu: Albino. Fur very soft, mostly white w/hint of yellow on tail. Usbha: Albino. Slight yellowish cast to fur - mainly around tail and ears. Fur rougher than others, but not extremely so.
9. How often does your ferret go to the bathroom? Not certain - at least once every hour, possibly 2x. Will try to determine a more definite schedule 10. Does your ferret's feces and/or urine smell?Yes - the bad pooers tend to smell worse, but none have no odor whatsoever. 11. Smell your ferret. How strong is their odor?Llullu & Keller smell the strongest, but it's not bad. I practically have to stick my nose in their fur to smell them. Oatmeal has a very faint smell - almost like caramel - while Llullu has practically no scent 12. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being completely lethargic and 10 being "through the roof!" what is your ferret's energy level? Keller: about a 4. Occasionally gets more excited but then usually runs into something and slows down again. Oatmeal & Ushba: 6-7 (unless the cats are within range - then Oatmeal jumps to an 8-10, poofy tail and all). Llullu: roughly 8 (again, the cats raise this number) 13. How excited is your ferret about meal time (when fed kibble)? Free-fed kibble. They don't seem excited about it unless they run out and don't have access to any for a while (i.e., an hour or so) 14. Have you attempted to switch from kibble to a natural diet in the past? If so, what methods have you tried. Be specific. With the ferrets, no. In the last month (week, with Ushba and Llullu) I've offered them thawed mice, but only Keller shows any interest (Ushba DID take the mouse to stash it earlier today, but showed no interest in it as food). I haven't brought myself to try live mice with the others, but I've been thinking about it for the past few days. 15. What other information about your ferret(s) would you like to share? Oatmeal is currently on 200micrograms of Lupron monthly. Both he and Keller are participating in a study on B12 deficiency in ferrets. Each receives .25cc of vitamin B12 2x monthly. My veterinarian has assured me that they cannot overdose on the B12, and has advised me that overdosing CAN occur w/Vitamins A, K, and E. Starting today, Llullu will be receiving 100 micrograms of Lupron monthly, and is being given Clavamox (.1cc 2x daily for 14 days) to treat her vaginitis. She and Ushba received distemper shots today (2/23), with 1cc Benadryl to reduce likelihood of allergic reaction. Oatmeal & Keller did not receive distemper shots, but Oatmeal had a severe reaction (vomiting/explosive diarrhea) when given one last February. Currently battling flea infestation of home. All pets have been bathed and are combed regularly for fleas, couches have been dusted with baking soda/carpets sprayed (no animals allowed in area for over an hour) and vaccuumed, laundry is being washed as often as possible (limited drain field on washing machine), and all pets treated with Advantage Multi (4 drops each for Keller, Ushba, and Oatmeal; 2 drops for Llullu) 16. If you can, please post a clear photograph of EACH of your ferrets directly below:Llullu (licking fingers): Ushba: Oatmeal: Keller: 17. a.) Do you understand that by starting this thread you commit to posting updates on the progress of your ferret(s) diet switch atleast every other day?** Yes - I will do my best to follow this. b.) Do you understand that if you will be away from your computer for an extended period of time you will need to exchange phone numbers (or email addresses if you don't feel comfortable exchanging numbers)via private message with your assigned mentor, so that we can monitor your progress and ensure your ferret's saftey during the switch? Absolutely c.) Do you understand that any threads that have not been updated in for more then a week (with no explaination as to why you are absent) will result in the deletion of the thread?*** Yes
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Feb 23, 2009 22:55:29 GMT -5
I have an order coming in at the end of the week from hare-today.com for both cats and ferrets to begin my switch (though I'd like to start sooner, if possible). I ordered 1lb Rabbit w/bones/organs, 1lb ground Whole Mouse carcass, 3 lbs Turkey pieces, a 10lb sampler (1lb each (ground): chicken, pheasant, rabbit, turkey, beef, goat, mutton, pork, duck (all w/organs & bones), and salmon (w/bones)), and a Raw Pet Food supplement mix (SEACURE, Taurine, Salmon oil, Dulce, Kelp, Grapefruit seed extract, vitamin E, Glandular, Vitamin B, & Vitamin A+D). Maybe I'm getting a bit over-excited? I also found a local breeder, so when I run out of fuzzies I'm going to switch (Keller, at least) to hopper mice and rat pups and see how that goes. The other day I found a foot that had broken off the mouse I'd just given Keller, and decided to give it to Oatmeal. I finally got it down him, but only after he spit it out 3-4 times and I had to practically pry his teeth apart to get the foot back in Oats' mouth. When he finally ate it, he did so very slowly and deliberately, with as much distaste on his face as he could muster. It was like watching a kid who'd been told he can't have dessert (or leave the table, for that matter) until he'd finished every last bit of his brussel sprouts or creamed spinach. I'm afraid this is going to be an uphill battle
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Feb 25, 2009 1:41:40 GMT -5
Ok, it is quite the thing to see them when they first try to eat raw food or real whole food . You could swear by the reaction that you're trying to poison the sods You've got an awesome order together for your furbabies. Wonderful variety. You can actually use your soupy to get your guys to start eating raw food, if that's where you want to start. The whole time that you're trying to convince them to eat soupy mixed with meat you can be working at getting them to eat prey by playing catch the mousie (I usually start with pinkies, with this as you don't have to deal with fur). You can use either live or thawed depending on what you want to do. Not everyone wanting to feed prey wants to feed live and it's certainly not necessary . Is there any particular method that you might be interested in trying? Personally, I would probably start them with the soupy mix and add some very small pieces of meat to the soupy....not very much, just enough to offer a little bit of texture (texture is usually the stumbling block). You may have to get them to put the meat in their mouth, unless you've cut it or ground it very fine then they might try it on their own if it's well blended. I've given you some things to think about, read some of the threads. I will check in with you tomorrow, to see what you want to do and see if Giuli has found you a full time mentor Talk at you later. ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Feb 25, 2009 12:39:21 GMT -5
Thanks! last night I tried a method I'd read in one of the other threads - I cut up a wing and some meat, rolled it in ground kibble, and drizzled it with ferretone. Keller was more than happy to try the new stuff. Llullu and Ushba each got a bit rubbed into their teeth, them grabbed a small chunk and stashed them in the crinkle tube. Oatmeal got a bit rubbed into his gums and ran off in a huff . This morning I did the same thing with ground lamb (minus the 'tone), and only Keller seemed really interested. In fact, I later caught him at the cats' plate (I'm trying to switch the cats, too) working on some chicken meat, and right now he's in a box with a wing tip . He's having some trouble with the bone, but seems pretty determined. I'm out of soup, so I'll have to run by the butcher to get some more rabbit. I picked up some duck at Publix last night, but then noticed that it's "seasoned with up to a 10% solution of water, salt, and sodium phosphate," so now I'm afraid to use it for the animals (which isn't a complete loss - duck for me!). What do you think? Thanks again - I'm working on getting pictures posted of everybody
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Feb 26, 2009 2:00:49 GMT -5
Ahhh, so we have one raw muncher That's awesome and not one of your younger ones either. Way to go Keller, you know what's good for you Looks like your other guys are going to try a more tranditional switch and give you a bit of trouble. That's ok....we'll get them too Yay, kitty for assisting in switching the furbabies I think you're going to be eating some duck I personally wouldn't feed them the flavour enhanced foods if at all possible. I learned the hard way too . I didn't read the label and when I went to mix it up I found that I had goofed and found myself eating some ground turkey for supper . If you find yourself spending a day with your furbabies, I found that rubbing a little bit on their gums or sticking some on their noses (then they have to lick it off ) multiple times during the day, seemed to work very well. That way they had to face the flavour and texture as food and they don't really get a break from it. As soon as they show some interest in it start offering it up on a spoon. Fantastic teeth photos. It looks like you might have some problems with Oatmeal and Usbha's teeth I would be particularly concerned with Oatmeal's because it almost appears that there might be an infection or some gum issues undert that one molar. I would keep a close eye on both, but Oatmeal in particular as those back molars are looking poor. I love the bottlebrush tail on Keller in the outdoor pic. They are really sweet. I will check in on you tomorrow and see how things are going ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Feb 26, 2009 23:52:58 GMT -5
I'm a bit worried about Oats' teeth, too - I'd like to have a cleaning done, but after taking 3 in to the vet last week (Oatmeal for his yearly exam/Lupron, Ushba & Llullu for distemper/initial checkups, & Llullu for her Lupron), they've already racked up their bill for the month. Do you think his teeth can wait another month, or should I take him in ASAP? The vet didn't seem too concerned, but then again Oatmeal HATES that place and she may not have gotten a good look with him wiggling around (it's gotten to the point that she puts ferretone on the exam table, and he backs away cause he knows he's about to get a shot!) As for the switch - Yesterday I made a mistake. I rolled some more lamb in ground kibble and left it on a plate for them. That evening as I was cleaning up, I realized I hadn't found any poo all day . To check, I set out a bowl of regular kibble and woke everybody up - and all except Keller went straight to the bowl. I know that I only put in a few small pieces of lamb, and there was PLENTY of ground kibble without meat, but they'd gone on a hunger strike anyway . At least I was able to get everyone to eat a mouse foot or tail (generously covered in 'tone, unfortunately) Back to the drawing board I set out the giblets from the chicken today. Keller and Skit both settled in, though I had to reassure Skit when she saw Keller getting to the plate. I rubbed bits into the teeth of the others, and tried the tone bribe again - it was only partially successful. By the time I left for my errands, everything except the neck had been eaten, so I placed it in the ferret room before I left. There was nothing on the plate when I got home, and if it was stashed (either by kitten or ferret), I haven't found it yet (and I DID look for it! ). I'm about to pull out a mouse and do another round of gum-rubbing. Oh, one other thing that concerns me. Cleaning up the poo a few minutes ago, I noticed that one of the poos is much darker and smellier than the others. It almost is a DARK reddish brown color, and the smell is pretty rank. Keller is the only one whose diet has changed significantly over the past few days. All the other poos are normal (i.e. what I described in the questionnaire, which is to say not great). Should I be worried about this? Thanks
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Feb 27, 2009 0:57:33 GMT -5
I think your guys teeth can wait for a month or so, but I would definitely keep a close eye on it. The red line around the gum line bothers me and if you see him starting to rub at his mouth, or food refusals. I would then run him into the vets. You may still have some time before that tooth really causes some problems. Sounds, despite your set back (you've discovered that your guys will not tolerate at this time you messing with their kibbles ) that you are progressing. From your description, Skit is now contemplating the whole switching thing. That's good . Multi coloured poopies....welcome to the world of raw feeding Somebody is eating your raw meats and kibbles too (at least that's what it looks like to me) Once you start introducing raw meat the colour of the poopies is going to be dependant on what types of meat they've eaten. You're going to see a range from normal browns, to red to black depending on the amount of blood in the meat. It can be a little unsettling to begin with . Keep an eye on it (I'm sure you will) and if you have reasons for concern or if someone appears to be feeling off or ill then you should probably take a sample into the vet's. I think you will probably find that the colours will change almost daily. I will check in with you tomorrow, and see if your guys have decided to sample more of your raw foods and to make sure everyone's doing ok. ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Feb 28, 2009 2:08:12 GMT -5
Hmm. Thursday I gave Keller a chicken thigh and it saw him sniffing at it, but when I checked later it didn't appear to have been touched. And unfortunately, today I had an appointment that lasted an hour longer than I expected, and by the time I'd run out to pick up my order of ferret/cat food (which FINALLY came in!), I barely had time to come home and toss it in the freezer before heading to work. I feel bad that I didn't have more time today to work with the fuzzies and their switch. On the upside, I got to meet the guy who made the order from hare-today, and his fuzzy. The ferret is only 9 months old, and not yet neutered or descented (and WOW - I'd heard about the smell of a rutting ferret, but never actually experienced it before. He's due for his neutering in May). The owner really wants his ferret and dog on a natural diet, but Odie (?) had shown NO interest in the rabbit meat that he was offered. I told him about rubbing the ferret's mouth with the meat to get him used to the taste, and directed him here. Still, I really felt that I let my babies down today because my schedule suddenly went awry. Should I cut the thigh meat up to make it easier to deal with? He seemed to have some difficulty with the neck (although it did disappear eventually - hopefully I won't smell it in a few days), so maybe he was overwhelmed by the size of the thigh? I would think he'd have at least eaten some of it. Also, since the bones and organs are ground with the meat I just ordered, is it ok to cook them into soup, or would that make the bones dangerous? Also, since the meat was almost thawed by the time I got home, should I not have put it in the freezer? And does that mean that I can't refreeze it once I've portioned it out? I set a small plate of chicken and bone (rib, I think?) into the cage a few minutes ago and Keller settled right into it. Maybe he just doesn't like dark meat ? Additionally, the "pudding poo" has returned - it's kind of orangey and moss-green. Since I suspect Ushba, I've put him in a separate cage for the night and laid some newspaper down at the bottom. I also put a small piece of chicken into his kibble to see if he MIGHT eat it. Will check back in tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Feb 28, 2009 9:07:45 GMT -5
First don't knock yourself around about not having time. That's my weekend this week We all have them and we just deal with it the best way possible. Don't under any cucumstance cook bone. So, no...do not cook your mix, that will have to be fed raw. You can add it to your soupy once it's cooled though in fact I would suggest this. What you do in this case is you take the amount that your going to feed (the soupy) then you take a tsp not much more and add the ground to it. Mix very well. You shouldn't be able to even really see any of it in the soupy. Let your guys eat that, if they won't try a little spoon feeding. Every couple of days add more a tsp at a time. Eventually, you have no soupy and all raw and you've converted them to a raw ground diet You may be able to speed up or have to slow down at some places during the switch, setbacks are common and are just part of the territory. As for the chicken thigh. He was probably overwhelmed. Try cutting deep scores to the bone (I just use a criss cross pattern), so that the meat is hanging on the bone. This will offer tooth holds and give him something to start on. My long time raw feeders still like to have their meat scored and they think nothing of eating whole rats but you have to score their chicken pieces We don't spoil them much really The orangey poopies, seems odd. Keep an eye on them, you may want to try some pumpkin (then they will have an excuse for orange poopies ) Sounds to me as though someone is having some digestive issues, either new foods or stress of some sort. If you have some concerns and can narrow it down to a certain ferret, take a sample into the vets and get them to test it. It would rule out parasites or infections. Oh, yes you can refreeze, no problem. I do it all the time. As I feed 16 ferrets, I quite often buy from a coop so that I can get a better price. Quite often it's frozen in 50 lbs pkgs, I then thaw it out and repackage and then freeze again. It doesn't matter and your little ones shouldn't really care. You do loose some nutritional value, but it's a lot better than having to cook it to death so that you can kill all the bacteria and then add artificial nutrients and bake it again until it's a dried condensed kibble I think I got all your questions, I will check back on you later today, and I should be on off and on tomorrow. Talk at you later ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Mar 1, 2009 1:51:19 GMT -5
Well. I'm going to start giving out smaller pieces. Ushba didn't touch the bit in his food, and Keller didn't finish the chicken I gave him last night. In fact, when I let them out of their cage into their room, he dragged the chicken out of the cage, across the room, and left it sitting on the floor. I threw it away since it had been out for several hours. I'm hoping the butcher is open tomorrow so I can pick up some rabbit and (unseasoned) duck . . . .
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Mar 1, 2009 12:54:38 GMT -5
You could try putting some ground meat into their soupy.. Yes, try smaller pieces and see if that works better. So much of this is trial and error and it can get really frustrating. I will check in with you later tonight and see how the day went ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Mar 1, 2009 17:49:56 GMT -5
Well, I now have the ingredients to make my soupie, so I can try putting the ground meat in there . . . Cut up some rib meat and gave that to Keller . . . he started eating it right away. Poured some tone on it, and the others started licking it off . Got home about 30 minutes ago, and there were 2 Tone-free piece of chicken sitting on the plate . I also broke down and bought a live mouse. Took a large plastic bin, put in about 2-3 inches of lawn clippings and coconut husk (and a half coconut shell for shelter, in case this didn't work), added the mouse, and then put the ferrets in (except Keller - he likes the frozen, and I like it that way). They immediately set to exploring the grass and husk, but didn't seem too interested in finding the mouse (a WHITE mouse - it didn't exactly blend in). Then Keller jumped in, and - of course - went straight for the mouse. I removed him and then worked at keeping him OUT of the box while trying to get the ferrets inside interested in the mouse. Llullu got bored and jumped out, but Oatmeal found the mouse and got interested. Ushba must be a pacifist or something - he tried to make friends with the poor thing I removed him. Oatmeal lost the scent of the mouse or something, cause he would find the mouse, go after it, lose it, then seem to lose interest. Finally, he found the mouse and kept after, and once he did, the mouse didn't last too long. Unfortunately, after that Oatmeal completely lost interest. I even took him out of the bin and dangled the mouse in front of him. He grabbed it away from me, sniffed at it a bit, then carried it off and stashed it under his cage I don't want him to kill it if he's not going to eat it In the meantime, Keller had jumped back into the bin and was tearing around for "his" mouse. I'm thawing one out for him now - I hope I haven't ruined him for frozen food
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Mar 1, 2009 18:06:51 GMT -5
I"m glad to hear that I"m not the only one with a total pacifist for a fert Frustrating but productive just the same. Killing it is the first stage. You can try cutting it open or playing with it with them (now that it's dead : and seeing if you can get them to tear into it. Sometimes it takes some blood to make them realize it's food. I don't think you ruined Keller for frozen mice, my guys will eat them frozen, live (they prefer them to run around...brats) or anyway in between The rats they get are all frozen. I hold a kill about once a week or so and they go on a spree. I pick up their kills and freeze them, they then get to keep a couple for themselves....sometimes they stash it until later but a lot of the time they will go off and eat the first couple. Lady B, Thor and Attila will just keep killing until there are no more, then they eat. The rest of the guys will kill and then ask to get out of the bathtub with their prize. You may have offered too much stimulation to begin with, with grass clippings and a place for the mouse to hide. I have to admit it is difficult to find a white mouse in a white bathtub, as my guys have to...they have to use their noses. The brown ones were easier for them to hunt. How fine did you cut your chicken pieces, some like to start large but most like it almost ground (very tiny pieces)...it might be worth a shot that way. Let me know how the soupy goes. I will check on you later. Don't worry, your mousy episode wasn't a wash up. The fact that Oatmeal actually did his first kill is a step in the right direction. My 2 newbies don't seem to recognise mouse as food, so we're going to play some games of tug the mouse when I do the next slaughter. Talk at you later ciao
|
|
|
Post by faunafreak on Mar 3, 2009 1:18:23 GMT -5
I think today was a bit of a step backward. It took Keller some time to finish the mouse I gave him (assuming the cat didn't find and finish his "leftovers"), and he wasn't very interested in the quail wing I gave him. Granted, quail wing is apparently little more than skin and bone, and he did eat a different piece of bone-in quail I gave him, so maybe it was the lack of muscle on the wing. I tried giving Oatmeal a thawed mouse today, but he wasn't interested. In fact, a few minutes ago I opened a drawer looking for him, only to find yesterday's mouse. Not much had been eaten, but the head was barely attached to the body. I don't know if I can put another live mouse (or myself) through that again. The whole point was to get the others a taste of mouse so they would be more willing to eat the frozen ones. It took a LOT longer to make the soup than usual. First, I'd forgotten how much more difficult it is to debone a raw carcass than a cooked one. 2nd, I had to take a break due to a call to the ferret shelter. Somebody had found a skinny ferret in a box at a motel . I went and picked the girl up, cleaned her up and gave her food and water before going to work, then came home, picked her up, and took her to the shelter before coming back to continue getting the meat ready for soup. But at least now the meat is cooking (it's in a slow cooker on low, so I can get some sleep and finish it in the morning), and I have 3 bags of RMB in the freezer. I just took out the ferrets' kibble and have what's left of a quail carcass that Skit didn't finish earlier. Maybe Keller's been getting too much of the kibble, so isn't as hungry as he should be.
|
|
|
Post by Heather on Mar 3, 2009 2:09:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't consider the fact that Keller didn't eat the wing a huge step backwards. My guys won't eat wings, they prefer legs the picky little brats Not enough meat worth fighting over on those wings. Now leave them around for a few and let them become jerky and suddenly they're an awesome treat...no accounting for taste Did you offer the mousey again or was it too late. You could also freeze them if they just do the kill and offer it again later (at least Keller will eat them). So each time you may find that they get a little closer to eating whole prey. Let me know how your furbabies do without their kibbles. Don't leave them too long (I'm sure you know that but I always remind everyone when they're switching ) It's the problem, finding the happy medium between letting them get just hungry enough to eat the raw food and being too hungry. You have to wonder about what people are thinking when they abandon a furbaby, poor little thing I will check on you tomorrow. Good luck. ciao
|
|