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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 31, 2009 18:58:54 GMT -5
I am home with my new boy and man is he a moose. I cant wait to see what he looks like when he grows up. As far as kenora goes, she and newton will be in the playpen until they get along. He is too big for her to hurt and he has no interest in hurting her so they are safe until they figure out our differenced. The odor of the house on the other hand is most certainly not safe. Top to bottom it smells like poof. I really did get lucky in being able to find meat. My local stop and shop will order anything I want and I have the name of two butchers I am going to talk to so maybe I can get the organs for even cheaper. I will let you know how the grinder goes, it should be here tomorrow  . I will definitly try striping the meat off the bones before offering it, at least until i start grinding. |
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 31, 2009 19:36:13 GMT -5
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 1, 2009 13:49:59 GMT -5
im sorry work didnt calm down in time for the weekend.
I have some kinda funny news. I went and picked up my meat order at the local meat market and man was I taken by suprise. When they skin the rabbits they go from head to to, so I have ears and noses to go with my fur... and the heads he saved are skinless which makes it alot easier for me to feed... if they will eat them... but I feel like the Godfather having rabbit heads in my freezer. in addition he gave me four pounds of chicken's feet... I have no idea what I will do with all of that. I also have about two pounds of every organ, except heart and digestive tract, in the chicken's body. Lastly he saved me three rabbit hearts... maybe more, I havent gone through the bags of rabbit furs yet, which feel heavier than they should and I suspect they have the heart in with the skin and fur. lastly i bought $20 worth of rabbit meat, so one of those rabbit pelts, heart and heads in there are from the rabbit they butchered for me. Im still getting my head around that. But they just chopped the rabbit into eighths so each part has both bone and organs in it. Hopefully the kids like it.
Oh the things we do for these ferrets...
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 1, 2009 19:08:14 GMT -5
Oh the things i do for these ferrets.
I just finished grinding everything and I made alot more than I intended. Good thing newton eats like a horse. Im fairly certain that everything is balanced. I didnt about 10% organ meats, half liver and half everything else I got from the chickens. Then I did about 5% heart plus a little extra just to be sure I got enough taurine in there. Then I did a whole chicken and about a pound of thighs, meat and bones. Then I added about 0.5 of a pound of lamb and a bit of eggshell since the lamb didnt have any bone. Oh and four eggs. Plus pumpkin... the rabbit fur didnt work out, the grinder was not able to grind it at all and I couldnt cut it very easily.
Next I did a much smaller batch of veal, rabbit and pork. Some of the rabbit bone, rabbit organs and the organ mixture above. I added egg shell since there wasnt alot of bone. Then I added about 25% by weight of the chicken mixture above. This will be more to mix up their day to day food than anything else... even though there ended up being a lot of this too.
To each of those I added cubed chicken from the chicken thighs to give them something to chew on.
What things should I watch for to know if my food is balanced? The two things I am concerned about are that I added too much bone/eggshell and maybe a bit too much pumpkin. Besides that everything else should be in good proportions and it looks halfway decent... kinda like home made hamburgers.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 2, 2009 10:53:12 GMT -5
Food imbalances will show up long term. They happen over time. Blood work can reveal imbalances (but this is not always the case. Imbalances cause disease over time. Too much calcium can stress the kidneys, inssufficient taurine for cats cause heart disease, etc. All of the "balance thing" is not exactly precise, although precision gives you a measure of confidence that your ferrets are getting a good diet. If you tthink about things in the wild, ferrets will scavenge - they wll find half-eaten carcasses. When food is plentiful, other predators probably leave more bone, etc. So scavengers will most likely hunt less and eat a higher percentage of bone that season. It takes quite a while for most dietary issues issues to develop (unless an animal is old and already as wear and tear on the organs). For future batches, I recommend following the recipe (which has been analyzed for balance) at the cat nutrition.org site. This recipe has been used very successfully with cats (also obligate carnivores) over a long period of time. Here is the link.... www.catnutrition.org/recipes.phpThere is some REALLY GREAT info on making food at this site, so poke around and check it out!!! The recipe is for chicken, but you can use other meat sources - and you can mix and match meat types. The idea behind sticking with one type of prey per food batch is that a whloe carcass will be "closer to nature", and we don't know everything(not even close) that's in the food we eat - not even for people!!! That being said, many people have been successfully feeding ferrets things like beef - and those bones are too big for ferrets to eat unless they are ground....so they wil be eating bone from smaller prey. No big issue here. "Perfection" is ideal but not required here. I would not be too terribly paranoid about the balance in this first batch of food....your'e also feeding some freeze-dried. Plus there are many ferrets on this site that end up going for months on egg shell and few organs until they accept all the variety. Your little "horse" will eat a LOT. If you're still paranoid, you can alternate some commercial food with the homemade... the commercai can be either a smaller percentage of homemade with the freeze-dried - or you can alternate with the frozen complete diets. If you know that your batch of food is "short" on something, you can always feed a little of what's missing as treats or on the side. It's also nice to know that you are less likely to suffer imbalance issues with natural sources of vitamins/minerals. Artifical/synthetic sources of viatmins/minerals as more "dicey" since we really don't know how well they are absorbed. Kibbles add back the vitamins, usuall synthetic ones. I will ask Heather and other mentors to take a look at your mix above - she may have a recommendation (like feed some extra items on the side) Another thing...unless you're feeding a BUNCH of ferts, smaller portions are GREAT for convenience - you can make your our "medallions" by freezing your food in ice cube trays. You can then put the medallions in zip-lock freezer bags. ANother thing I will do is ask Heather to continue to watch your thread since she is our most experienced raw feeder (11 years), and she will be better at advising on how to mix and match the different food sources. I want to make sure everyone that comes to this site gets the best information that's availble. So we commonly ask mentors with different experience than our own to jump in and provide other views...it's all about the ferrets- not the mentors' egos   . This s why I LOVE this particular forum..the people are so willing to share, help, and learn. Nobdy knows it all -jennifer |
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Post by Heather on Aug 2, 2009 14:32:33 GMT -5
I promised I would come in for a peek and I'm here I'm sorry that your rabbit pelts didn't work out  I wondered but it was worth a try. What else did he put in that bag of pelts...did he send you the hearts? What was the total pounds that you used?? Your percentages are right on. I can better guage if you have some idea as to weight. I too, add extra hearts to allow for the loss of taurine. How much pumpkin did you add? That really won't matter, you may have some funny coloured poopies that's all. I like that you're adding some chunked meats to your mix. I like your mix. Jennifer is correct, most imbalances occur over time. Ferrets, like cats have a tendency to come up short on bone (they're lazy little critters), also remember that they're not like dogs in that they require a lot less bone. Cats and ferrets both eat smaller animals that have a slightly higher bone ratio, because of their faster digestive tract they also will flush a lot of unused calcium. I think your mix is ok. Watch their poopies, coats and activity levels...these are the primary notices on your diet. You will have to tweak here and there. You may have to add some fat (unless you added the skin and everything, if you did you may not). Do you weigh your furbabies regularly? I would keep a journal of monthly (or for now weekly)weigh in's. Onward and up....because the site was posted here, I'm going to offer some additional insight on the cat food mixture, the recipe in particular. Way too much supplementation (a good variety of proteins, such as you have in your mixtures are far superior to added vitamins). A word of warning *never* use psyllium with cats or ferret (unless told to by your natural path for emergency use), carnivores do not drink near enough to eat psyllium which grows to 3 or 4 times it's bulk in the bowel. The chances of blockages are huge. Humans are adviced to drink up to 16 oz of fluid per dosage to counter this. The use of pumpkin is far superior, it also means that you don't have to add water and water down your meat mixture. You want to get the most nutritional value for your furchild. I think your mix carries merit and you may find that you have to make adjustments, more meat, less meat, less pumpkin . These things are small, minor changes. I find that I have to change my mix ever so slightly from spring and fall adding a bit more fat in the winter (or the little bums eat me out of house and home :  Your mix is very similar to mine (except I use solo meat sources...just chicken, or such) I like yours and may try it a bit as I have some who don't like some of the varieties and may actually eat it in something they like Sounds good. Have fun...what was your grinder, it sounds like it does a really good job? ciao |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 2, 2009 15:31:13 GMT -5
I wish i had measured but my scale broke shortly into starting. So instead I essentially went by volume and over guesstimated the organs a little because they weighed less than the muscle and bone. I made sure that my organ mix had the livers, heart and others in proportion. Next paycheck I will get a nicer scale so I can measure the ferrets as well as the meats and such. That way I can record what I am giving them as well as their change in weight.
As far as fat, I added most of the skin from the chicken, I took a bit off the back because it was a really fatty chicken. I also added the skin that was on the thighs, again not all of it but probably 80%. For the other mix, there was the fat in the chicken mix and then fat on the veal and pork in a reasonable amount. I will keep and eye on their weights to watch for any changes since starting the mix.
I was planning on feeding whole rabbit chuncks and cornish hens with organs to balance out if there was any deficiencies. I also have the left over lamb for them to build strength in their jaws and large chicken quarters that I will split and half and should make one meal for them. I am planning on feeding my meat mix in the mornings and giving them the rabbit, cornish hens, lamb/chicken and mice/rats at night. The cornish hens and rabbits should be a complete meal and the other bone in pieces will be a treat if the portion of rabbit/ hen is a bit on the small side. At most they will get the lamb/chicken quarters one meal a week if they are fed by them selves. We know the rats and mice are complete (I will be getting in two different ages). Hopefully by doing this anything i can counteract any possible problems with the mix.
The grinder worked really well. I crushed the bones with my knife and the meat when through very well. It wouldnt grind the rabbit bones, but that is probably for the better, the chicken bones went through like butter. It wouldnt grind the ends of the long bones (they were too large) so I chopped them off and added them as chunks in the meat mix to give them something to gnaw on. They are large enough that they wont miss them while scarfing down their food.
As far as the size of medallions, I tried finding ice cube trays but after three stores didnt have them I game up, Instead I made 2 oz patties (they are thin enough to be cut in half if need be) and a dozen or so four ounce patties for days I will be gone a bit past normal feeding time. both sizes are approximate compared to when I was weighing out ground turkey to make patties.
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Post by Heather on Aug 2, 2009 22:57:27 GMT -5
You're doing well, Jennifer, helped you well I think with the mice and other whole meats that you're feeding that you will have no problems ciao |
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Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 4, 2009 23:54:35 GMT -5
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 6, 2009 20:45:25 GMT -5
Just to give you an update. I have decided to balance the evening feedings somewhat like would for a week with on organ day/ chicken necks/feet etc, a whole prey day, and then the rest are still cornish hen, cut whole chickens and whole rabbit (the organs are mostly separate and coming on organ days although there are some pieces stuck to the ribcage)
I have also been giving Kenora an extra quarter of a freeze dried raw patty each night just to make sure she is getting enough food since im not quite sure how much Newt is eating and how much kenora is eating. I also let her get to the food in the morning before I let Newt loose so she has a chance to eat if she is hungry before he comes in and Hoovers everything.
I am going to start trying to switch the boys to a bit of raw food before I head to school, well besides the commerical raw that is.
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Post by Heather on Aug 14, 2009 22:31:19 GMT -5
Can you run a weeks menu for us to have a look at? Just to give us an idea. I think that you can probably graduate with your mixes, unless you want to stick it out a little longer as you get your guys to eat whole meats. They're eating their ground mix right? Give me some updates and a menu and we'll see what's going on . ciao |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 16, 2009 13:29:16 GMT -5
Alright a one week menu
Monday: morning ground chicken mix (bone meat and organs)
evening- rabbit part
Tuesday: morning- ground lamb/veal mix
evening- cornish hen part
Wednesday: morning ground chicken mix
evening- lamb rib plus organs
Thursday: morning- ground chicken mix
evening- corning hen part
Friday: morning- rabbit part
evening- mice/ rats
Saturday: morning- lamb veal ground mix
evening- broiler chicken part
Sunday: morning- ground chicken mix
evening- lamb rib, small rabbit piece plus heart
I am thinking about selling the grinder (I know I just got it) and buying the ground food from hare today. Is it a balance diet? I would still be doing the whole parts and meat/bones in the evening but I am having trouble with Newton having diarrhea from the ground and the lamb/veal ground seems to not be digesting well. So I am thinking I may have taken too long while preparing it and I dont want to risk doing that again. I know he isnt allergic since he gets each of those types of meats individually with no problems.
I have been giving Kenora ground in the morning and commerial raw at night since she wont eat organs unless they are in the ground up mix. Once she is feeling better I am going to work on getting her to eat organs by mixing them with heavy cream and ground up meat.
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Post by Heather on Aug 16, 2009 17:15:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry that you're having problems with loose poopies. It may not be you, lamb /veal is very rich combination and if you added organ meat you may have got the ratio just slightly off for that particular meat, especially if it's only Newton who is having problems. I have several ferrets who prefer their organ meats ground up in their ground mix. You will have to check the ingredient list of your commercial blend. If it has the organs, bone and meat in it with minimum veggies then yes it's probably balanced. I believe they tell you what the ratio of bone to meat is as well. You will find that it probably differs from protein type to protein type. I know that some companies, some meats don't provide bone, that it's just meat. I used to grind up chicken necks and backs to add to that meat (I don't buy from haretoday as they don't ship up here, but this is what I found from my supplier, it may be entirely different with haretoday) Your menu looks awesome. Are they eating all that? Whole meats too? Take care feeding cream, especially if you're having problems with loose poopies already (you can add pumpkin to your ground and this will help them while they transition). I've only got 3 of my 17 who can stomach cream, so I just gave up and fed more fat if I want to fatten someone up Let me know how your little ones are doing. ciao |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Aug 16, 2009 19:14:05 GMT -5
He has loose poop on both the lamb/veal ground and the chicken ground which is why I think it was how I prepared it. I know that the bone was in the right proportions. If I read correctly hare today does in fact include bone and organ in thier ground mix. I havent entriely decided yet but it looks like I am leaning that way. I also got the grinder on sale, including shipping so I should be able to get all of my money back once it goes off sale. Kenora still doesnt like the bone in the whole meats but she will eat some of it and she isnt a fan of organs which is why I tried ground meat in the first place. Newton eats everything, he is like a garbage disposal. I havent tried switching the boys off of comerical because Im not sure if my mom will continue it once I am back at school. But I think at this point we are graduated. Kenora is fine with raw foods, we just have a few details to work out, like getting more organs and meat into her (I think chicken wings would up her bone percentage nicely) and the boys are successfully switch to commercial raw. Thank you both for all of your help.
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Post by Heather on Aug 16, 2009 23:04:36 GMT -5
The commercial diet would be easier or the easiest for your mother to feed. Do you think she would mind giving your furbabies some whole meats, say, every couple of days. It shouldn't be any more trouble than usual feedings anyway. The balance would come in when you feed the commercial diets or perhaps when you're at home (are you staying at home, coming home on weekends or is your mother looking after your furbabies until you come home on break??, not prying just thinking of your furbabies and how to help you and them ). Let's keep you checking in with updates until you make a decision as to what method you're going to choose. I'm really more concerned about the loose poopies than which method you're using . You have a very good idea as to what you need to do and how to do it . I just want you to have total convidence in what's going on with your furbabies before you leave for school. We will definitely graduate you before you leave (unless something really weird happens   ) ciao |
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I bet the bats are into it