Tikki, Mis, and Coco Switch!

[Zoshi]

1. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names, ages, genders, and do they have any health problems (this is VERY important)?

I have one ferret currently Scratch that, there's three now.

1) Tikki, a female. She's 3 years old. As far as I know, she has no health problems, although her glucose level at the vets on 4/27 was 90, and the vet was a little tiny bit concerned about that.

2) Mis (pronounced Meesh): Sable, Looks about 5 months old, no known health problems.

3) Coco: Champagne/Cinnamon, Looks about 4-5 months old, no known health problems.

2. What are your ferrets currently eating? Include their main diet, plus any treats or supplements (such as duk soup).

Tikki is currently eating Evo Feline, with an occasional treat of soupies made either from a boiled turkey leg meat (shredded)+crushed kibble or ground chicken baby food+crushed kibble.

Mis and Coco were eating Marshalls (stinky little kids X__X) but I'm going to be supplying them with Evo.

3. What kind of diet do you want to switch to?

Raw

4. Why do you want to switch to this more natural diet?

I've read about how much healthier ferrets are on a more natural diet, and it just makes sense that a carnivorous animal should be given a carnivore's diet.

5. Where/what/who got you interested in natural diets?

I noticed a post on Ferretvillage.org where someone mentioned this board, after which I spent a lot of time reading over topics here and other places.

6. Please list the current weight for your ferret(s). Do they appear overweight? Underweight? How is there muscle tone?

Tikki: 1lbs 9oz... When you sit her in your lap and shake her, her belly/lower parts by her legs jiggle like jello. She has nice lines, and doesn't look overweight. Not a lot of muscle tone on her right now, though.

Mis is chubby, he's got slight spare tires. 2lbs.

Coco looks and feels in shape, lithe. 1 lb 4-5oz.

7. What is the condition of your ferret's teeth/gums? (can you get a picture?)



That's the best picture I could get... Her back teeth are yellowed, and you can see the tartar buildup pretty well on that one top back tooth in this picture. Her gums look all right on the surface, but they occasionally bleed when I brush them; not much, but enough that you can see it.

Mis and Coco have pink gums and clean white teeth.


8. Describe the texture/color of your ferrets coat.

Tikki: Her coloring is up in the air. I like to call the darker color a dark chocolate; she seems to want to be a panda marked as well, but it doesn't show so well.
Her undercoat is pretty soft, her overcoat right now feels a little rough, but not scratchy or brittle.

Mis has scratchy fur, soft undercoat.

Coco has scratchy fur and undercoat.

9. How often does your ferret go to the bathroom?

Tikki: Daily I can count around... 5-6 poops in the litter box.

10. Does your ferret's feces and/or urine smell?

Tikki: Yes, some days stronger than others.

11. Smell your ferret. How strong is their odor?

Tikki: I can smell her pretty good, and my clothes have ferret smell on them if I hold her for any longer than 10 minutes. It's not overpowering, and it's not bad, it's musky.

Mis and Coco can be smelled pretty much from the other end of the house at this time They are veerrrryyyyy stinky...

12. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being completely lethargic and 10 being "through the roof!" what is your ferret's energy level?

Tikki: I'd say between 5-7, jumping to between 8-9 when she's playing. She can get pretty hyper, and you can almost never catch her dead asleep.

Mis and Coco were pretty excited, so I'd say around an 8 while playing, from what I saw.

13. How excited is your ferret about meal time (when fed kibble)?

She's okay with it. It's kibble. She eats some and stashes the rest everywhere she can fit her head in.

Mis and Coco are an unknown here.

14. Have you attempted to switch from kibble to a natural diet in the past? If so, what methods have you tried. Be specific.

Nope.

15. What other information about your ferret(s) would you like to share?

I'd tried giving Tikki different things to eat when she was younger, but never anything raw. She's had cooked chicken, roasted chicken and turkey, she's gnawed on turkey bones, and she's stolen the dog's rib-eye bone when she found it.

She can get super-high-strung at sudden or very loud noises. She doesn't like going outside. She nips when she's annoyed, and I think she might have worse sight in her right eye than in her left, but I can't be entirely sure.

The babies are brand new, so nothing there yet....



16. If you can, please post a clear photograph of EACH of your ferrets directly below:

Tikki:



Mis:


Coco:



17.

a.) Do you understand that by starting this thread you commit to posting updates on the progress of your ferret(s) diet switch atleast every other day?**

Yes

b.) Do you understand that if you will be away from your computer for an extended period of time you will need to exchange phone numbers (or email addresses if you don't feel comfortable exchanging numbers)via private message with your assigned mentor, so that we can monitor your progress and ensure your ferret's saftey during the switch?

Yes

c.) Do you understand that any threads that have not been updated in for more then a week (with no explaination as to why you are absent) will result in the deletion of the thread?***

Yes

**Note 1: If you are unable to make it to a computer (such as on weekends) please indicate below so we know whether you just dont have computer access or if you have gone MIA.

***Note 2: If you would like to try the switch again and you are committed to making regular updates you ARE welcome to restart your thread. Failure to provide regular updates will result in the deletion of your thread.

[Zoshi]

And a quick note/update here as well.

Today I made a small mix of finely chopped chicken breast meat and chicken baby food. Tikki LOVES chicken baby food, so so she went at it pretty well. If she got to a small piece of meat (around 1/4" or less), she chewed it and it went down well. Larger pieces (1/4"-1/3") were licked clean and carried to her "den" (I cut a hole in a 12-pack 7-Up box) and stashed. She's a BIG stasher.
So, smaller is better for her right now, but chicken seems to be pretty well accepted.
Also, if I held the larger pieces so that she had to pull on it, she'd end up with smaller pieces in her mouth that she swallowed instead of stashing.

I'm really excited about the switch.

[Heather]

Hi Zoshi
You work fast, I just finished saying hello in your intro Tikki's beautiful, what a sweet little thing. You didn't mention an age about 3 to 5?? it's difficult to tell by the pic. If you could fill us in with that I will arrange for a mentor for you. Great job starting on your own. Keep up the good work and I will get right back to you...it shouldn't be long
ciao

[Zoshi]

Oops, sorry about that! I forgot while filling out the questions...

Tikki is 3 years old.

EDIT:

Also, today's breakfast... She had, again, chopped up chicken breast with just enough chicken baby food to cover them, and seemed a bit more excited about it today than she was yesterday. She still doesn't entirely understand that she can eat it straight from the bowl, but if I offer it off of a spoon, or off my fingers, she takes it happily.

All together, there's about 1 tablespoon of mix that I give her right now. I don't want to increase it too much, since she tends to stash in the middle of eating, and I don't know if she'll only stash more if I give her more.
Yesterday she only ate around 3/4 of the mix, leaving behind mostly the chicken bits (I'd left the bowl with the mix in for a few hours with her). Today, within half an hour she'd eaten most of the mix, and stashed only around 4-5 pieces of chicken around 1/3" long/wide. Again, if I held the larger pieces and forced her to pull on them, she'd rip off smaller chunks and swallow them down.

I also left a small of amount of kibble in her cage overnight, literally small (I counted 25 pieces), and it was all there this morning. She does have some kibble stashed in other areas of her cage, so I'm not that worried about leaving her too little.

I need to go buy a little more chicken breast now... I have divided chicken wings frozen (we were making chicken soup yesterday, and I stole what I could for Tikki), but I think it might be a little too early for that; she still needs to get the idea of larger pieces of meat = food into her head.

[Zoshi]

Mostly for reference, and because I know I will forget where I saved the file I have on my comp. xD

The best part is, all of this is in stores within walking distance of my house.

Available Meat List:

Chicken:
Whole Fryer
Liver
Wings Breast (Split w/skin, and without)
Necks
Gizzards
Thigh
Feet

Turkey:
Wings
Necks (skinless)
Back

Beef:
Ground
Various cuts
Tongue
Neck Bones
Oxtail

Veal:
Various vuts
Tail
Calf Liver

Pork:
Ground
Various cuts
Feet
Rib Tips
Neck Bones
Liver


Lamb:
Various cuts
Head
Intestine
Kidney
Breast
Neck Bones


And I think that's all.

In other news, Tikki has taken a few pieces of chicken breast from me plain, and eaten them. She's running around now, but in a little bit I'll be putting her back in her cage and I'll give her some lunch.

[Zoshi]

UPDATE:
Two new additions have just appeared, a boy and girl who seem to be about 5 months old. Some people had gotten them for their (very young) kids, and after a month didn't want them anymore, and handed them off to the grandparents. Grandparents had no idea what to do with them, and put out an ad on the local Polish radio station.
Long story short, they're now asleep in their cage in our living room. x3 A cute little champagne girl, and a chubby sable boy.

I'll update the info on top ASAP.

[Heather]

I'm sure your new mentor will be in for a start She should be introducing herself shortly. I'm sure she will have as much fun as you do starting your new little ones and your little Tikki to the world of raw feeding. Your babies will probably switch very quickly and draw Tikki into the fun world of trying new sensations and flavours.
ciao

[Zoshi]

Yay, I can't wait to meet her!

Haha, the babies were a surprise to everyone! Thankfully, they now have names... It wasn't easy..

Update on food!

The babies pretty much started on EVO cold-turkey since there wasn't any food coming with them. Coco, the girl, took to it pretty easily, but Mis, the boy, wasn't too keen on it at first.
Since I wanted them to get used to a different texture as well, and hopefully entice Mis to eat sooner, I soaked the kibble in enough water to make it soft, but not entirely mushy. Success! Both Mis and Coco took to it easily.

I've been trying to give the babies chicken baby food as well, but they're not too excited about that at the moment, so we'll try again tomorrow. And chicken pieces got turned up noses at the moment; they're still adjusting, so I'm sure all they need is a little time.


With Tikki, I had a little rough start this morning, since I was trying to get the babies their food as well. She got kibble-dust coated chicken pieces, and proceeded, again, to eat all the tiny pieces and hide the bigger pieces. xD I was picking chicken jerky off of the cage floor and out of her stash spots...

Tonight, I made her a soup of softened kibble, chicken baby food, and as tiny slivers of raw chicken breast as I could manage, all mixed up with enough water to make it soupy. She took to it right away, and I could tell she was getting chicken pieces, she chews them differently than she chews the kibble. I think she doesn't know/understand how to chew them properly yet, so if she happens on a bigger piece she goes to stash it. I'm taking her stashing as a good sign; I suspect she knows its food, she just isn't sure what she's supposed to do with it.
In half an hour she's drank up almost half of the soup (around a tablespoon full, maybe a little more), and it seems she's gotten a good bit of chicken along with the kibble as well. I left the soup for her for overnight snacking, and I'll be checking on her progress in the morning.

So, that's all from me for now. Oh, and I ordered the sample pack from Casey's Hidden Pantry, so once that comes in I'll be seeing if the kids will take a liking to freeze-dried.

[luci]

Hi Zoshi! I'm Luci (my real name is Tara) and I'm going to be your mentor. I'm really excited to get your little furballs onto their raw diet! I think you'll be so pleased with the results once you get there.

A little about me:

My Significant Other and I share our home with two cats and two ferrets all of whom are on a prey model/RMB diet. I had wanted ferrets for as long as I knew they existed, but I waited until I was in my *ahem* mid-thirties before I felt that my life was stable enough to give them all the attention, space and stability they needed. After many long talks, hours on the internet researching, reading Ferrets for Dummies cover to cover, meeting with a ferret rescue organization and learning everything we could... we adopted two girls, Fierra and Ghia, in December 2007. Their previous owner had ditched town and left them with his brother, who liked them, but hadn't planned on having pets. An impending move to California prompted him to contact the rescue organization to have them re-homed.

The poor things were living in a room covered in poop, eating 8-in-1 Ultra meat flavored cereal, sprayed with fresheners to cover their smell, additives in their water to reduce their smell, etc. etc. You get the idea.

It took three months to switch them to EVO kibble. In April, our second cat found us and joined the household. At that point I had been feeding my first cat EVO canned and Evanger's with a couple other high quality canned foods for variety. Once the second cat joined the family the cat food bill was a small fortune. I had already been researching raw diets and this was the kick I needed to jump in and go for it. In early May I switched the cats to raw. No transition needed. I put down raw meat and they ate it. Woo! There were a couple of bumps in the road, but they were easily overcome with a couple of minor changes. I was so excited and by early June I was ready to switch the ferrets.

First tried the old standby: boneless chicken breast. Minced it into the smallest pieces ever. They gagged on it. Tried coating the raw bits in smashed kibble. Nope. I purchased a few jars of Gerber's turkey and chicken baby food. Smeared a bit on their noses. Ghia went for it and happily licked the baby food off my finger. Fierra was totally unconvinced. I scruffed her and put a dab on her tongue. And she loved it! For June and July I spoon fed them chicken or turkey baby food every day in addition to their EVO kibble. In August I started trying to sneak some tiny bits of raw turkey into their baby food. They spit it out every time. I started blanching pieces of meat and adding that to the baby food. Didn't work. I blanched 1" cubes of chicken, cut it into kibble sized pieces and coated it in kibble powder. That was the trick that finally did it. This plus the baby food became their diet for the next four weeks. It was a lot of work, but I knew that eventually I would be plunking down a hunk of meat for them the same way I did for the cats.

I started making the blanched pieces of meat bigger and added less and less kibble and by Sept. 22, 2008 they were completely off kibble. It was then that I joined this forum and became a newbie in the mentor program. You can read the rest of Fierra and Ghia's journey here.

All right... so on to your kids. It's wonderful that you've already made some progress and it sounds like you have the instincts and patience needed to get through this. I have all the faith in the world that we'll be able to switch over your business. I think what you're doing for now is great. Keep trying the baby food and kibble dusted chicken or turkey until it seems like they accept it and look forward to it. And I found that my girls loved pork more than anything else, so that might be worth offering. You could also try blanching the meat like I did to see if you can up the aroma factor a bit to entice them.

Can you tell me a little bit about your daily schedule so I can have an idea as to how much time you have to devote to the switch? I found it to be pretty darned time consuming at the beginning, but I can help get things streamlined for you. And just know that it will get easier and patience is key.

Let's get this party started!

[Zoshi]

Hello Luci! It's very nice to meet you and Fierra and Ghia!

First of all, let's get to my schedule so I don't forget (I'm a little absent-minded occasionally... xD):

At least for the next week-two I'm pretty much at home 24-7. Some days I need to be out during the day, around 3-4 hours, and this is usually the hours between 9-3, depending on what I'm doing. I'm applying/interviewing for jobs, so in a little while I'll probably be gone longer during the day, but for now I'm almost always home.

Generally, I've been getting up to give Tikki her breakfast around 7AM, and she has her run around time spread out an hour here, an hour there, during the day. She's notorious for running around crazy for a half-hour/hour, and then crashing somewhere for three hours before starting up again. Since her cage is in a different room, I usually look for signs of sleepiness, and put her back in the cage for her snooze. I would usually leave what she didn't eat in her cage with her so she could snack on it when she felt hungry enough.
I've been giving her her second meal (the one that stays overnight) at around 8-9PM.

...and I think that pretty much sums up my schedule for now. :3

Today was pretty interesting... I had some thawed chicken left over from making Tikki's soup, so late last night I cut it into slivers and mixed it in with Coco and Mis's softened kibble.

This morning -- both kibble and chicken were gone, and the dish was licked clean! I let Coco and Mis run around while I cleaned their cage, and got breakfast ready for Tikki and them. I put some cut up chicken in their softened kibble again, and when they went in the cage Coco went straight to eating, practically scarfing down both kibble and chicken without a second glance. I'm starting to think we should have named her Hoover instead... xD

I made Tikki her usual chicken-and-baby food, but since I was making scrambled eggs for myself, I separated the yolk from one of them and mixed it up in her soup for her. She was pretty intrigued, and seemed to enjoy it, although this time she wanted me to feed her with a spoon instead of eating it out of her bowl... Silly girl...


Right now, I've come back from the store, and I've gotten a bit of pork, beef, and lamb. Of course, I'm not going to throw it all at them, but there were good prices, so I figured why not. I'm going to try some pork with Tikki for lunch, and see if the kids will be interested in it as well.

Oh, and the chicken baby food is still a no-go with Mis. Coco is okay with it, but it's nothing special yet.

[Zoshi]

Lunch-time update: The kids are eating their kibble-n-meat, Coco eats it more eagerly than Mis does. She's also more interested in plain meat than he is, although she isn't licking/trying anything yet.

I'd cut up the pork, beef, and lamb meat into portions to freeze, and I had little pieces left over, and thought what the hell... I cut them/mashed them up as well as I could... there was around two tablespoons of meat mix. I mixed in about a 1 1/2 tablespoons of chicken baby food, enough to make it into a mash. So I dished out about a tablespoon and a half into Tikki's bowl and took it over.

Apparently, the carnivore medley tickled her taste buds - I spoon fed her about half of the mixture before she started stashing pieces into her "den". I left the rest of the mix in the bowl in her cage (there's just less than a tablespoon left).

The kids are out playing now, so Tikki is in her cage, but there are going to be the first out-of-cage introductions later on today. :3

[luci]

Well, it sounds like now is a perfect time to be taking on this challenge.

So Mis is going to be your little stinker, hmmm? Have you tried sneaking a taste of the baby food on his tongue while he's yawning or while he's scruffed? Sometimes they need a little forceable encouragement to try new things.

Tikka is doing great! Keep doing what you're doing and trust your instincts about trying new things with her. It sounds like she's being really receptive.

Coco seems like she's pretty willing to try whatever you offer, yes? Do you think the kibble is still important to her?

[Zoshi]

Mis is definitely being quite the hard-headed one of the bunch... I've smeared baby food on his nose, I've gotten some on the inside of his lips, and each time he acts like I'm trying to poison him. I hold onto him until he swallows, but he will actually sniff-then run away if I try to offer him more.
He's finally started eating softened kibble, and I saw him snag a piece or two of the chicken I hid in the kibble, but that was it.

Coco, on the other hand, seems to start zeroing in on chicken pieces as soon as she starts eating. Plain chicken doesn't seem to interest her, but if its got a kibble-coating on it she seems more likely to try it. I think tomorrow I'll try offering her just chicken pieces in kibble coating and see how she does... although I think she's going to do well...

But first, a slight back track: I gave Tikki the rest of her carnivore medley mush, and she had some before shuffling off to sleep. Today was the first day she got out to play with the kids, and she was dead tired. I'll see how much she had in the morning.

However, I was giving the kids their food, and I took a small, teaspoon sized dollop of the mush, and hid it in their kibble. They were dead asleep after the playtime, but when I checked in on them a while later, around an hour, Coco (of course, who else?) was up and about, and nearly all of the kibble-chicken mix and ALL of the mush was gone. I'm guessing it was her, and I'm guessing she didn't want to share with Mis.

Also (this is getting a little confusing, isn't it? I kind of ramble as I write... I'm sorry!), Tikki was stashing meats out of the mush into her den, but it seemed she was mostly stashing chicken pieces, and mostly eating the bits of lamb, pork, and beef. Usually, when I check back later, about half of the pieces of chicken she stashes are gone, so I know she eats them and knows they're food.


And, I weighed them all today! Tikki is 1.5 pounds, Mis is 2 pounds, and Coco is 1.3 pounds. I'll be checking their weights every couple of days to monitor them.


That's all for now, I guess. Hopefully, I'll be able to get Mis to realize that the baby food isn't poison tomorrow... xD

[Zoshi]

So, Coco and Mis got their mix of kibble-n-meat, with a ratio just about half and half. I saw both kids eating, and this morning it was all gone. Their second bowl for brunch was pretty much the same, half-n-half, so far it's been a few hours, but they've been sleeping hard and only a bit of it was eaten. (Put it in around 11-11:30, and now it's 3:30).

Also, both Coco and Mis aren't too keen on the chicken baby food. Coco will swallow it if it's in her mouth, and she seemed quite content to eat it when it was mixed in slightly with her kibble, but she wants nothing to do with it otherwise.
Mis continues to act as if the baby food is poison; I managed to get it into his mouth and onto his tongue multiple times, and each time he's writhed like he was in pain and spit out as much as he could. If I scruff him and hold him while he has it in his mouth, he's forced to swallow, but he really doesn't look like he likes it.
I do, however, have beef baby food, so maybe I'll see if that wouldn't get these two interested.

Tikki got a mix of the chicken baby food and pieces of chicken and pork, but she doesn't look too interested in it today. I tried giving her pieces separately, but she just takes them and stashes them in her den.
Tikki has been having some weeeird poops, as well. They pretty much look like raw chicken, so much so that when I first saw them I thought she'd put pieces of raw chicken into her litter box. They're also gummy. I'm also starting to get poops in places where she usually did not poop. For most of the week they have been pretty good looking, different from her kibble-poops but not too weird. I'm wondering if something in the 'Medley" didn't agree with her just yet, and I'm going to go back to just baby food and chicken bits for a while, since I know she was eating that pretty well. If she doesn't look too interested in that still, I might try the kibble-dusting method again, doing it the way I did with Coco and Mis.

All three are very, very sleepy today, only waking up when I show up, but even then being little lazy butts. We'll see how they'll be acting later today...

[luci]

Weird poops are totally par for the course with raw fed ferrets! Their digestive systems are so short that what goes in doesn't have much of a chance to change form before it comes back out. Also since Tikki isn't eating any bone yet their really isn't anything in her system to give her poops some shape. So not to worry.

It is also common for ferrets to start pooping in weird places when they have to deal with changes. My girls would up and poop in the middle of the floor during their transition. Drove me a little batty, but it stopped eventually.

If Mis and Coco aren't excited about baby food maybe a better choice for them would be to stick with the kibble dust on raw or blanched meats. Another thing to offer to get them used to the taste and smell of real meat is to put out a bowl of the water from blanching or boiling their meats (after it's cooled of course). You could even pour the broth into an ice cube tray and freeze for use later. It also comes in handy for making soups for them instead of plain water.

You may want to start collecting a few egg shells for adding to their meals until they're eating bone. Just rinse out the shells and let them dry thoroughly. Then grind them up into as fine a powder as you can. A coffee grinder would work if you have one that is really well cleaned out with no traces of coffee bean oils or a mortar and pestle would do. Once you have a baby jar full of powdered shell it will last a long, long time. Just a tiny pinch is all you need to add to their meals. Don't worry about adding shell right now because we want to make sure that they are happily eating their meat before we go and monkey with it.

Keep at it. You're doing a great job. And it sounds like the three of them are playing hard and that will make for nice, hungry ferrets! Does everyone have their own little stashing spot or den? Are they in the same cage? Do the youngsters have good ferret manners? Is Tikki teaching them any of her tricks?