Joclyn's Switching Thread

[joclyn]

sorry been out of touch. still having computer issues. too much lost time trying to fix whatever is the problem. i've had some success, i think, and then the thing craps out on me - and before i can get on the site to post an update. so, this time around i'm stopping in here first! i hope the thing stays running long enough for me to get the post submitted!!

not much news other than a few mice given and some sardines. too much other junk happening. more rain and two more days of water in the basement. i cut my finger bad and lost a few days of normal routine due to not being able to function properly.

and i've been trying to get things ready for the biz's cage-guests

i'm watching a pair of boys for someone who is going on an extended trip. since they're older (6 & 7) i wanted to get them a bit adjusted to being here and to me and my biz, so we've been doing a bunch of visits. have had to cram them in because of the water in the basement issues and the cut finger.

so, the past week and the one coming up it's just basic household stuff, basics for ferret routines and trying to work in moving things around to make space for their cage on top of getting them over here to get familiar with things here. they're be here friday and will stay for a month. i really wanted to ease them into it a bit better than just the 10 days it'll end up being - life can be a nasty four-letter word sometimes, though, so you just gotta do the best ya can...

anyhoo, thats what's happening here. the most i'll have time for this week is mice. and i'll have to get my order in tomorrow because i'm about out - i'm using 4 at a time now and more frequently, so what i had will be done the next time i give them.

i may be able to throw in another thing one night. i still have some lamb in the freezer. when i originally got it and portioned it, i wrapped each portion in plastic wrap - as air-tight as i could - and then put them in a freezer zip bag and removed all the air. i didn't realize i had the two portions left! it's been frozen, in my big chest freezer at below 0 F, for about 4 months. with the way it's wrapped up, it should still be okay, shouldn't it?

i'll try to check in during the week. no guarantees though since this computer is not reliable and i may not have time while at the office - i only took lunch one day last week and this week will be just as busy and i'm not going to have a lot of time free to stay later and get online before going home.

k. better go before this thing shuts down on me!

[Heather]

Wow
Don't worry about the freezer stuff. I find goodies in the bottom all the time and go ...here little fuzzies....new goodies
Get yourself set up, I hope your computer problems iron themselves out (I found myself in trouble last year when my darling son downloaded a virus, finally had to take the beast in to someone who really knew what they were doing) and that it doesn't rain so much (a wet basement is the pits ) Good luck with the little guests.
Let me know how it's going.
ciao

[joclyn]

on top of everything else, i had to rush boo to the vet - he was obviously anemic. VERY low pcv - far below 'critical' stage. took him home overnight and went back the next day, with oberon, so a transfusion could be done.

that went well - literally saved boo since his level had gone down even more overnight (was at 7 right before the procedure). within a couple days he was pink again - so, his body is producing the red cells for the moment. he's still not out of the woods - level is still below normal and i can see how it's fluctuating by how pink or not pink he is.

i'm going to back away from mentoring. there are people waiting for mentors and it's not fair for me to take up your time.

with boo sick like this, and his time so marked, i need to focus on him. it's still not clear what's the cause and, if it's something that's in any way treatable, i need to find out and do what needs to be done for him.

[Heather]

Please don't feel you're taking up my time or wasting anyone else's time. Even if you were to free me up, I can't at the moment take on anyone else until we open the program up again. We're almost there but not yet. That being said, if you wish to back out and take care of your furbaby I really understand. I know how difficult it is to be trying to treat a furchild and have no idea what I'm treating and having the vets coming up empty on the idea dpt. Please, don't feel you have to leave, you don't have to, but let me know. Please keep in touch and let me know how your little one is doing and what they find out. I'm worried about him. I will light Boo a special healing candle and know that my thoughts are with you both.
ciao

[joclyn]

thanks, heather - a so believe in lighting candles and i know yours will help him!

i do want to stay in the program - if it's okay with you that i take a couple/few weeks to deal with the immediate issue with boo, then, i'd like to stay in.

after talking with other vets, it's still unclear what the cause is. only thing we're sure of is that it's slow-onset - which is good since his body had time to adjust to it. even with the low readings the day of the transfusion, he bounced back and it's obviously his body is making red cells, so, that's another good thing. and he's back to being pink. it's fluctating a bit, still, it's mainly his nose that's going pale and sometimes the gums, so he's holding his own.

the vet who does the lupron first thought of excessive estrogen as the issue (since he is adrenal) and also said it could be chronic infection. certain tests weren't done before the transfusion and now, with the pred, some tests won't be worthwhile doing.

so, to rule out infection, we're doing intense antibiotics for a couple weeks. so, it's going to be a matter of meds every 4 hours since i won't give more than two things at one time. he's on pred and carafate and two antibiotics and prilosec. so, it's more than a full plate just with his situation.

and i've got the two guests (one of which is insulinomic, so, also gets meds).

so, won't be much time for raw. although, i did buy some goat again and will be giving it tonight. i know obi, winston and duncan will take it. maybe finola, noodle and pixie will try it this time

still haven't gotten a new computer - boo's issues just threw such a wrench in everything! so, will be scarce hearing from me.

i'll try to post tomorrow at work about how the goat went tonight.

oh, other than yogurt after the antibiotics course is done with, anything else i can give boo to help boost his system? he's on a VERY high dose of prednisolone, so, could use extra help (even without the course of antibiotics).

thanks, heather!

[Heather]

Please, if you want to stay in the program, do so. I don't have a problem with you popping in occasionally...you have problems and that I can work with and Giuli wouldn't want you to drop out either.
I'm sorry to hear that you've still not found out what your little Boo has but glad to hear that he's still progressing and that he's working at getting better. Boo's healing candle is still lit and I really hope that they can find out what this is.
As far as an immune booster, leave that with me...I'm going to poke another list and see what they come up with. I know that yogourt (real yogourt) and acedophelous (sp??) are both used to create good gut bacteria but I'm thinking there are other things that you can use too. I will get back to you.
Good luck, give little Boo a big hug from me and tell him he has to get better. Let me know how the goat meat goes over, most of my guys really like it
ciao

[Heather]

I posted your question with some long time raw feeders and holistic practitioners, they advised that you don't feed yogurt or acedophilus...I was surprised until they gave their reasoning and it made sense. They claim that if (you still aren't sure what has caused this or is causing this)you feed or boost the immune system and this is an immune suppressing di-sease (it feeds off the immune system) that you're actually feeding the di-sease. They suggest a good raw or home cooked food. One suggested that heart (raw) would be an awesome system boost as it would actually be feeding into the whole blood thing, they also suggested if your guy would eat it some of the bleed off from the meat as well. I don't know exactly where Boo is in the whole switching thing but even if you made a raw soupy or a cooked soupy you would be helping him.
Good luck and know that I'm thinking about him
ciao

[joclyn]

i have not had time to pop in. he's just about to be done with the antibiotics. okay, i'll skip the yogurt. that does make sense, too.

and, no, we still aren't sure what the issue is. the lupron vet is recommending weaning him off the high dose of pred over the next few weeks and seeing how that goes. she said the only way to test for excessive estrogen is to do the tennessee panel (expensive) and it's not necessarily going to tell us anything anyway. so, i just don't know.

what i DO know is that you'd never know this little one was almost dead a month ago! his eyes never lost their glimmer and alertness (well, for one day) and his appetite has always been good (even before the pred made it even better). he's got good color and he's active - runs around and pounces and chases like normal. the antibiotics were definitely a good move.

my usual gravy (cooked type) is pretty rich, so, i will have to make time to make some more - been too tight around here and it takes me two days to do it (even a fairly small batch). he will eat some raw meat, hasn't done mice yet. since i don't have any of my homemade stuff, i've been using the canned a/d stuff with or without some of the canned evo 95% or bg 100% stuff mixed in. i also got some carnivore care from this other vet (my usual doesn't care it) and he likes that and that's easy on his system. i can probably come up with something similar that's homemade, too.

i DID get my rodentpro order in and i got a mix - pinkies, weanlings, peachies, adults. so, i can start those that didn't have interest in full-size mice on the little bits. haha, i gave one of them to one of the guests (who is 'picky') and he stood up and grabbed it outta my fingers and took off with it seems he's not so picky when you give him something he likes!!

so, i'll be starting my picky kids on the pinkies over the weekend. how long should i keep them at each size level? a week, two weeks?

oh, i also got quail. 2 week size. they're larger than i thought they'd be. body is about the size of my palm and legs are longish and the beaks are fairly big, too. so, should i give one of them to the three that i know will eat it and just let them fight/split it up themselves? or should i chop it in half? or is one just a REALLY good meal for one?

[Heather]

Yes, the tennessee panel is expensive plus it also throws false positives. If it was more acurate, then the price might be worth it. I'm glad to hear that he's starting to feel better and that the vet is considering pulling back on the pred. We will keep our fingers and paws crossed that this was just a passing virus.
Sounds like your visitor knows what's good for him Don't look at a time period to hold your guys to. Move on if they seem to start to get the hang of eating the one size of mouse, also don't be surprised if they actually skip sizes too. Remember that the younger the mouse the less usable calcium is available to your fuzzies. That being said there are trace elements even in the smallest that are good for your furkids. I've never fed whole quail before....I would start with feeding 1 bird to the three fuzzies, that way you're not wasting food if they just ignore it or play with it. It always provides a huge amount of stimulation for the furbrats to bicker over their dinner . If one seems to get all the meal then add another bird so the others can have some too. Watch and observe....if you think they would enjoy their dinner more if it was chopped in half then do so. My guys like sparring over their dinners...there's nothing like stealing someone else's dinner, it just tastes better
Let me know how it goes.
ciao

[joclyn]

omg! i can't believe it's been this long since i posted last!! i'm so sorry to be out of touch for so long - didn't intend that at all.

obviously been too busy.

i've done nothing other than some mice intermittently. far too busy at work and that stress bleeds over into home life. had to have an arguement just to get one day off. and that i needed to get ready for the show. really need more than a day.

anyhoo, the show actually went well. finola, who i couldn't show before due to no tail fur, took 1st place in dew. i knew she'd do well (she's just gorgeous now that all her fur is back). i was surprised at 1st place though! very pleasantly, though

the others - some placed; some didn't. noodle did not do as well as he has previously and oberon did - he placed in alter (first time he's done so).

got my newbies and they're starting to settle in. i've not offered them anything other than kibble yet. i'll wait a bit with them; want them to settle in a bit more first - they've had enough upheaval and changes this past month!

the two boys will be going home by the end of the week, so, things should get back on a bit more normal routine here. heh, two playgroups is hard when you're so used to only one and this past week i've had to do three, so, time has been really tight!

boo is actually doing really well. he's stayed nice and pink since the antibiotics treatment was completed. so, infection was definitely part of the issue with the anemia. only time will tell if the adrenal is also part of it - just started reducing the prednisolone dose now, so we'll see.

i wish i could put him back in with the others - the kibble with chicken does seem to be an issue for him, so, can't move him back unless/until they're on raw.

oh, funny thing about the mice. i'd given one to the two boy visitors...thought they'd eaten it, so did another one a few days later. had put it in the cage...

well, the second time was earlier in the evening than the first time, so, i got to see the action. turns out they probably didn't eat the first mouse as they didn't eat the second one.

the second time i put one out, rusty went over to their cage and tried to get it out of the cage he didn't succed since i was there and moved the bowl to the back of the cage - the first one he probably did get out of the cage.

so, what i thought happened probably didn't...

makes me wonder if the mice i've left in the fn have been eaten by the ferrets or the cat! (the fn is much easier for rusty to get his paws into than the martins)

[Heather]

Congrats and hugs to your little furkids for being so good and showing so nicely
I'm sorry that you've not had much time to get your guys going but life does get in the way sometimes. Perhaps this month I have a kitty too, who likes to steal the mice from the ferts but he really won't have anything to do with anything he didn't kill so the problem is with the live ones that he goes down and steals out of their habitats
Good luck and hopefully we can make some headway this month once you have just your little ones at home.
ciao

[joclyn]

gave all the petstore kiddies pinkies. i marinated them in 'tone first.

boo and finola couldn't care less and left them alone. duncan and pixie at least sniffed at them a bit. of the three newbies, the girl actually jumped away in fright when i tried to show her one .

the boys reacted better. mr muttly sniffed and then licked and took it out of my fingers and put it down and continued to lick at it and then stashed it in the litter box. mr chocolate sniffed at them and then GRABBED it out of my fingers and threw it into the food bowl...repeated that with the other one.

i left them in overnight - no one ate them though.

of course, winston, duncan and oberon went to town on them - i gave them to those three once it was clear the others weren't going to eat them...

[Heather]

Try playing tug with them...just dip them a little into the 'tone to make them interesting and see if you can get your guys to get into a tug match with them. Another thing you might try if they refuse to have a go at them is to cut them open. Sorry . They're not recognising them as food. If it absolutely fails and your guys refuse to play, toss them in an old blender and add them to their soupy, you may have to spoon feed them but you will start them getting used to the taste of baby mice.
If you have any questions, ask away .
ciao

[joclyn]

heya!! i'm still alive...

SO SORRY i haven't been on!! just continued busy and then my computer died and the health issue actually IS something - just what, i don't know for sure yet. had bunch of tests done and now need to get another one. i'm not pleased with how they skipped the non-invasive things and jumped right to something that needed anesthesia. i was concerned the sinus issues and mouth breathing added to the asthma would be an issue. and i was right. hopefully i will not actually need surgery because i almost coded just for that barely-one-hour procedure...probably will turn out to be gallstones; so far, no test has shown the gallbladder itself is an issue and i did see a stone, so...

anyhoo. i have not been anywhere near regular with raw. and i really need to jump on it for finola. everything i'm offering, other than mice, she's going for. lamb, goat, beef, turkey, turkey necks, chicken wings.

i really have no problem with winston & duncan - they'll eat whatever i give. oberon seems a bit picky...will eat a little bit and then go away - well, goat goes over really well and he'll usually finish that. and mice - those he loves!

the new three have only been offered the pinkies and they really don't have interest unless i put tone on them...and then they just lick that off. tried to get them to grab on so i could tug a bit at it. no go on that yet.

noodle and pixie are not interested in anything (update, see further on). boo is gaining interest. like you said 'fert see, fert do'. he's finally is starting to actually check out whatever i put out and bite at it a little and lick it. watches the others when they're eating, too. so, i just need to get him to actually eat a bit and he'll be okay, i think. he does eat some lamb...other things not quite there yet.

i've not tried organs yet. did buy chicken livers and separated and froze them...a while ago. how long are they good in the freezer? and i saw quite a bit of variety in the supermarket last week...dunno if it was just for the holiday or what.

all kinds of stuff; not just the usual liver. tongue, heart, tripe (and other types of stomach and intestines, too), couple kinds of liver, kidney (beef or veal and, i think, maybe pork, too?). and, of course, chicken giblets and hearts are always available. they also had pork ears and feet, marrow bones (beef probably), chicken feet, pork jowls. all kinds of stuff!

not sure what goes over the best, so, didn't get anything other than turkey necks - which i hadn't offered yet and had been wanting to try. any suggestions about organs? anything in particular that goes over better than other things?

oh, they've finally eaten the chicken wings! anything chicken has never gone over well...still keep trying though cuz i know the wings are good for teeth cleaning.

so, today i tried again. THIS time, finola went right for it! and boo checked it out and winston, duncan and oberon chowed on it. i got boo to eat the tiniest of pieces of it. ALMOST got pixie to try it too except winston woke up and snatched it and ran off with it (my fault as i should have moved pixie away from him and shouldn't have been holding the meat right over his head ). that's a first for her - she's never shown the slightest interest in anything raw/prey.

so, moving along slowly. hope you/yours are doing well!! and really sorry i didn't pop in sooner!

[Heather]

hey there.....great to hear from you
I'm sorry that the health issues are piling up, it certainly doesn't help at all. I commend you for continueing, that's great and you're making progress. Fantastic. As you're learning, if you can get one batch to eat, many of them will start to try just to see what the fuss is all about.
Organ meats.....best to offer....any that your little ones will eat. I've got a wide variety of who will eat what or not....it's one of the reasons why I offer a ground mix that has their livers and hearts in the mix. That way they get it, every last one of the little sods. You can only go by trial and error. I find that with the organ meats, texture often seems to throw them. My guys have had liver, lung and heart (also a muscle meat depending on your humour ) Gibblets or gizzards are always worth fighting for in this household. It used to be that quail was too, but the guys would far sooner eat mice now. Finnicky little sods.
That's great news about the wings....not only is it good teeth cleaning it's also great for bone. Gizzards or gibblets are also excellent tooth cleaners (tough little things)
Look after yourself and keep me posted on things, sounds like you're getting progress which is great. I'm guessing that you're still feeding kibbles? Good luck
ciao
ciao