Joclyn's Switching Thread

[Heather]

I like having slippery elm on hand but as I mentioned you can make do with most instances with pumpkin (if you use canned be prepared for some funky coloured poopies )
Balancing....I've always done this as an over time thing but the recipe that I gave you at the very beginning
**8 oz raw chicken thigh meat (including skin and fat)
1 tsp of crushed eggshell powder (take a raw eggshell. Rinse it out. Let it dry. Crush to powder)
1 raw chicken heart
1/2 raw chicken liver
Water (use more to make it soupier, less to make it thicker)**
can be made with any protein and you only need to vary the protein source. It can give you a very good idea as to what you need to balance the diet. Some people feed organ meats one day then a bone meat, then possibly a muscle meat then another bone meal adjusting this for the individual ferrets needs. Very young ferrets need a bit more bone, some of the older guys less, I just keep a close eye on my guys, their coats, weight and of course the litter box. As my guys eat a ground mix, whole meats (frankenprey) and prey, I don't really think about balance because the ground will balance no matter what I feed (it's a combination of ground bone, muscle meat, offal, raw eggs and my trace of veggie matter to replace the lack of fur or hair in the mix) I used to add yogurt but that upset my IBD brats and the cream just upset most of their tummies so I stopped that too (my guys can get fat without the creme ) Things like creme, yogurt are very much as tolerated. Most of my furbabies have come from poor beginnings and to have a food that's too rich in dairy based products appear to upset their tummies. Napoleon and Nicodemus are the only two fuzzies that I got from kit and even Nicodemus was a rescue. Napoleon loves his raw eggs, so does Odin, but Nicodemus really couldn't care less. My Porthos loved cheese but was the only fert that I've had that did, it made horrible poopies though and it really wasn't good for him.
It's funny to watch them set up where they fit into an existing business. I used to laugh when Napoleon was a baby (weighing in at 3 lbs) and Mischief (who chose Napoleon as a very tiny kit to be his best friend) would have issues about something and there would be little Mischief (barely weighing in over 1 lbs, very tiny for a male) hauling squalling Napoleon down the hall by his ear. It always reminded me of the tiny lady who had huge sons grabbing them by an ear and dragging them home Napoleon, who as a kit was exceedingly dominant has discovered that it's less stressful to just let someone else be the alpha. When Attila passed away a couple of weeks ago, there were some rumblings as the whole business shuffled to accomodate the loss of the alpha. Lady "B" who is my dominant female, finally solved it by choosing her next consort, in Odin. I find this interesting in that I have no intact ferrets (not something you can do when you are a rescue/hospice) and there is a very definite social structure within the two businesses or play groups.
If you need a break down as to what meat/bone/offal you might need to feed as in a weekly menu I can get that for you if you like
ciao

[joclyn]

i missed your post...i must have checked right before you posted it and didn't see anything when i clicked on 'last 20 posts' and definitely didn't notice there was a 2nd page until just now.

should have set the bookmark to send me an email!!

[Heather]

How's it going?
ciao

[joclyn]

i have not given anything other than mice since i tried the goat. some issues going on here - work, family stuff (medical issues - sis AND dad), work, animal stuff - medical and integration, work.

oh, did i mention work has been an issue??

duncan has been being an absolute total pain since i started introducing oberon to the group - to everyone; not just obi - although, obi and finola have gotten the worst of it. i wasn't quite thinking adrenal yet - just thought it was the basic 'who's boss' thing...then was talking to the breeder and she called it just from what little i said of what he was doing. then he started the humping bit on obi, so that clinches it.

when i was cleaning his teeth i noticed that the tips are clearish - which shouldn't be if he is just over two like i was told when i got him. although, if he is older, then being adrenal makes more sense (i know it can happen younger, it's just not all that common). the vet i go to for lupron says he IS older than i'd thought. and she also thinks he'll be more likely to have prostate issues, too (the breeder also mentioned that might be a possiblity - pretty good call since she's not ever seen him). especially since she isn't quite sure if he is adrenal - he has no fur loss at all, just is yellow/orange in some spots and very agressive. i have to get a urine sample to her so she can test for infection. we did the shot though, anyway. with him being aggressive and doing the mating bit, well, he's got to be.

due to him, i've had to do more than a bit of musical cages and i'm not all that happy with that...everyone is so stressed. it'll be a couple weeks before the lupron has any effect on duncan, so, muscial cages will be in effect until then and the associated stress for all of them will be in place for a bit yet.

trying to integrate obi was more than enough for them to deal with...didn't need duncan going ballistic on everyone...

it's been quite an eventful couple weeks here.

with the work junk, i haven't been able to make calls to local places about fresh meatstuff/organs. with everything going on, i haven't even been able to get to a grocery store either. so, i don't even have anything other than mice for them, at the moment.

so, been stuck in neutral.

work should be more normal this week and there isn't too much going on outside of it (like last week - every day was something happening). so i should be able to get supplies in so that i can get moving on things.

not sure how much progress will be made though with everything and everyone all out of sorts.

obi is not going to be an issue. is it okay to feed him raw if he's a cage with others that are eating kibble?? or should i just keep him caged separately for the moment?

[Heather]

I'm sorry things have been really rough. Sick ferts and all the other issues make transitions difficult. Having Obi eat raw in the cage with others eating kibble may not be a problem, he might actually teach the others to try some mice too. One can never predict what will happen with these guys. I've had senior ferrets who have switched with just watching others, I've had junior ferrets who were darned difficult to switch. They like to keep us guessing
You get things in order. Keep in touch and we'll go at this slowly while your business is this stressed. Keep working at it, but don't stress yourself. If your stressed your furbabies will know your stressed and react to the situation. Good luck
ciao

[joclyn]

came on to post what happened and saw your comment...

well, i gave them some beef tonight. first time i'd given obi it. he didn't have too much interest other than to eat one small piece and then stash some

gave him some time out alone - was hoping he'd eat some more. since he just wanted to play, i pulled winston out. HE ate some of the beef and then stashed some. so, added a few others because they all started waking up and wanting out.

duncan, usual piglet that he is, ate the rest of what was there, so i put more out since boo and finola and even pixie were sniffing around the dish. boo has eaten beef previously both cooked and raw - so, figured he'd try some. both winston and boo ate a little of the second dish - winston stashed more and so did obi.

10 minutes later, duncan threw up what he'd eaten...and winston and boo ate it? and i think finola did take a little of it too. they actually ate it all before i could clean it up!

i know he brought it up because he ate too much too fast...wouldn't think ferrets would do that. definitely not a problem with the meat itself since i just bought it today and i know it was just put out at the store yesterday...

so, is that something that is not out of the ordinary?? i know the moms will sometimes do that (to make it easier to digest for the babies). they're not kits though...

or, do i have something to worry about with duncan? he didn't do that after eating the lamb or the turkey any of the times i've given that...

so, anyhoo, they're all in a pile at the moment. duncan isn't bothering obi, so i'm leaving them be since out-time was short tonight because i had to go take care of getting a new phone (mine died last week and i wasn't able to do anything about it until today).

oh, i gave rusty some of the beef, too. he ate the first 'taste' of it and then some of the additional bits i put in his bowl. i'm leaving the rest for now as i think he'll finish it.

[Heather]

I would keep an eye on Duncan but I wouldn't be too concerned yet. Beef is a very heavy meat. He probably made a bit of a pig of himself, and ate too much too fast. As far as them eating it before you could clean it up...that's really ok too. Grosse but ok . Strangely enough there was a huge amount of digestive enzymes in that puked up meal and it was probably very good for all concerned. Sounds like for the most part a very successful bit of work. You may have to hand feed Obi a bit but he tried it that's good. So, from what I've read, every one tried at least a little bit of the beef. Good stuff. Moving along nicely. I will check in on you tomorrow and see where things are and how Duncan's doing.
Talk at you later.
ciao

[joclyn]

i figured them eating it was within the norm, albeit more than a bit gross...

although, sometimes they drink their urine and almost all of them stash food in the litter box - clean or dirty - and then eat it, so i dunno why i think them eating vomited food would be in the least bit gross!

ahh, i hadn't thought about beef being heavy. and he IS a lil piglet...so, i think it was just a matter of too much & too quickly. and, yes, it was partly digested...some of it more than others (very odd looking, actually).

well, i had a vet appt the following night and tonight i had to get the phone situation resolved, so, i didn't do any raw. barely enough time to do playtime and give everyone proper mommy-time. so, i'll throw some mice in the cages at bedtime.

oh, i think obi is okay with the beef...i put the dish in the cage at bedtime (and i put winston in with duncan and boo instead of doing it boo, duncan & finola) and not a bit of beef was left in the morning. finola may have had a piece or two...i doubt noodle or pixie ate any, so, i'm sure obi ate the majority of it.

i think he was just more interesting in playing when i first put it out - it was earlier than i usually give any raw stuff to him, so, it just wasn't time to eat, in his mind, lol.

[Heather]

It's funny how they perceive what time it is. All I have to do is sleep in...and Boris is rattling the cage bars (they're caged at night as not everyone gets along well enough to roam free in the ferret room at night) They're ok when they're roaming the whole house (there are some definite personality issues going on here ) but confined to one room...no 17 ferrets just don't get along together.
Eating habits...hmmm...ferrets, cleanliness....not Food in the litter box, very common thing Sounds like you have some solid takers on the raw meat dept. Good work.
I will check in on you tomorrow and see how things went with the vet. Talk at you later.
ciao

[joclyn]

vet appt was distemper shots for boo and obi. obi i had to give the year shot (it's in the contract)...i'd forgotten about that and did titer and that was high enough - still had to do it. and i did boo's even though his titer was well above. after what my friend went through with cd, i just wasn't comfortable with the level, so did the boost.

noodle was added in to the appt last minute. he's had the mast cell tumor on his snout since before i got him (he's from a shelter) and it's been a matter of keeping an eye on it. well, i noticed his snout was enlarged...not the tumor, itself, behind/underneath it (as is maybe it's growing downward rather than outward). i didn't know that they can become enflamed if they get irritated, so, treating with prescription steroid ointment (combo of 3 types) and hopefully that will reduce it/get rid of it completely. it's so close to his eye, that doing surgery would be tricky. the vet said his sinuses are nice and clear though, so, nothing to worry about with it being a malignant type of growth.

phew! i was so worried all day. and, he's feeling better since the treatment started - much more active. and that quickly, too!! so, that bodes well!!

didn't do the mice - got involved with playing and forgot to take them out to defrost. so, tonight will be mice and we'll see how it goes with the others (obi loves 'em, so, no worries there).

[Heather]

I'm glad the everyone's vet time went ok. I don't vaccinate at all, too many risks for my taste. It's all about comfort levels with different thing I'm glad that the Noodle's tumour is responding well to the steroids...it's amazing sometimes when you see allopathic meds when properly applied work. I hope it clears up entirely for the poor little sod. It couldn't have been comfortable. Take the night off and relax and play with your furbabies, enjoy them Give them hugs from me, start your mousies tomorrow. I will be interested in hearing how it all went
ciao

[joclyn]

mousies did not go over as well as previously

i gave them fully defrosted and put them out during playtime. obi grabbed and stashed and did his little 'oh, i have a mouse' dance. then i put winston out and he grabbed the stashed one before i could give him his...and then he & obi fought over it. winston actually did start to eat it - obi just wanted to stash - i guess he's just set in the time i was giving them initially (much later; right before bedtime). so, i added duncan in the mix cuz i figured he'd be focused on the mice rather than trying to mount obi.

i was right! so, now we have one who's actually trying to eat a mouse and two who are trying to steal it and one (boo) watching the antics. nothing much got eaten and then, when i put them up for bed, i put the mice in the cages. two with winston/duncan/boo and two with oberon/noodle/pixie/finola. i was hoping maybe someone else would take a taste.

in the morning, i found leavings in the cage obi is in. FIRST time i've found anything other than just a bit of stomach...i at least expected to find one completely gone. nope, two spines and two stomachs and some other organs, one tail and one leg and some fur. really surprised at that. obi usually cleans his plate fully.

in the cage with winston/duncan/boo there was stomachs and one tail. so, that was good - and repeat of previous times i've put mice in at bedtime.

idk, maybe giving frozen solid is better?? hadn't tried that with anyone other than obi - after seeing this much left over, i think i'll go back to that for him. with winston/duncan, i think they're at the point where they recognize the food item that they'll take to it frozen solid. will have to try that.

i doubt boo did anything other than sniff at any of it. dunno - will have to try it with him when he's by himself and see how he reacts. i know he's interested...i think he may be realizing it's a food item, too. he wanted to go over and at least sniff it - the others were in such a tizzy that he just stayed clear of them.

[Heather]

Ahhh, mousie play toy...it's all about the game
You didn't have that much left over. Tails and innards are not uncommon leavings. I find tails in the darndest places. Thor likes his tails in fact he starts at the butt and works up (he's a little weird anyway....challenged is a good word :. The rest of the crew, all start with the heads and leave the tails and entrails if they're not really hungry.
Try frozen and see if things change. hmmm, I just saw a thawed rat go by ..... Fun-Go has it...must mean that he trounced Captain Jack for it. I don't care as long as it gets eaten, and it doesn't get stashed in my bed You never know what happens after dark. I went in one night and heard major munchings and crunchings....couldn't find the culprit anywhere. Opened a sleep box and there was Nicodemus, munching happily away (bedtime snacks ). The only thing he'd ever touched (that I'd seen) was ground raw, so you never know. You do have to treat it as though he doesn't eat it though at least until you know positively
Sounds like mice are well recieved for the most part, I will be interested to see if they prefer mousecicles to thawed.
ciao

[joclyn]

i've been having problems with my computer, so have not been on too much. no updates here, either.

lots of lost time this week dealing with the computer issues and still have some residual new celll phone issues, too. and there's the water in the basement issue also which happened for three days in a row, so, haven't any free time to focus on raw feeding.

[Heather]

No problems....take care of the essentials and let me know how things are going
ciao