Heartworm and ferrets

As far as the supplied photo of reaction from an application of advantix. I'd say from the appearance of the irritation that the product was applied improperly. It was NOT applied in a line down the animal's back as directed, but rather just squeezed on in one spot. If the person applying the product doesn't do so in accordance with directions then it is NOT the product at fault. IF they ignore recommended application method, maybe they ignored recommended dosage also?

Of course, there has to be some reason the dog had a reaction right? Must be the owner's fault? Or the vet's? Certainly there is no way that the product wasn't as totally safe and harmless as you'd like to believe.

I know of a dog that is allergic to grass and he becomes one huge itch during spring and summer months! Does that equate to all grass is bad for all dogs? Certainly not!

Don't you find it is ridiculous to compare a reaction to pesticides to an allergy to grass? FWIW many vets use "grass allergies" as a catch all reason for dogs who have unexplained skin problems. Did your friend have the dog allergy tested? My childhood dog supposedly had "grass allergies" too but really his skin issues (and near constant ear infections) were more likely the result of a poor diet and overuse of steriods and chemicals.

We certainly cannot fool ourselves into thinking that all "natural" products are safe!!

I don't think I ever suggested any of the natural products you listed. I just suggested that perhaps applying pesticides to our animals as a preventive measure isn't very holistic minded. I believe that this is called a Holistic Ferret Forum.

I believe I even stated that I will use spot-ons if my pets get fleas.

When I got Josie back in 2006 I thought I was doing a "natural" thing by purchasing "Nature's Defense" by Sargeants, it is a flea and tick repellent derived from several natural oils which I listed above. !!

Flea sprays and spots ons brands widely available through petstores, grocery stores or Walmart are generally viewed as being some of the worst flea products out there in terms of quality. Biospot and Sargeants products seem to have some of the highest risks of reaction.

FWIW I have had the unfortunate experience, more than once of getting Frontline on my hands and being able to taste it nearly immediately afterwards in my mouth.

Heartworms are a "natural" occurance, they "naturally" live inside mosquitos, mosquitos are "naturally" attracted to warm blooded mammals. Tapeworm larvae "naturally" live inside fleas, fleas "naturally" feast on warm blooded mammals. !!

Funny I don't use flea prevention on any of my animals and have never had tapeworm. I have multiple dogs, litters, ferrets and cats. In 13+ years of ferret ownership I have never given HW prevention and never had a ferret with HW.

I'm all for natural approaches, but I also recognize that science can offer protection for my companions too. Death is "natural" too and I want to put that off for as long as I possibly can for my little friends!Kim

As do I, so I use caution when exposing my pets to chemicals and choose to not use unneeded chemicals on or around them. My ferrets who are naturally reared (natural diet, no vaccines and very limited exposure to chemicals) are like super ferrets - they are more intelligent, more playful, better condition and more althltic. They are healthy in a way I didn't know was possible for ferrets prior to holistic care. Ferrets are very sensitive to their environments. Feeding them the wrong foods can cause them to develop a fatal disease. Altering their hormones at a young age causes a hormone related, widespread disease. And IMO subjecting them to an overload of vaccines and chemicals can cause permanant damage to their immune systems.

It is funny to me how things go. A lot of progress has been made in the ferret community, even in the past couple years. Eleven or so years ago I was posting on the AOL ferret board and when one of my ferrets had a vaccine reaction, almost none of the regulars there could/would believe it was a vaccine reaction because it happened about four hours after he was vaccinated. When I said I was no longer vaccinating the ferrets afterwards, I was flamed for what an irresponsible owner I was. These posters seriously though that surely all of my ferrets would get distemper and die. Or rabies! What if a rabid bat flew into my home and bit them?!?! Those ferrets are all gone now but none due to distemper or rabies. Mostly they got old, died of old age or cancer. None had adrenal. None had insulinoma. One developed a vaccine site tumor from I'm guess one of the two rabies vaccines he received before we went vax free.

Shortly after the vaccine incident I started asking about raw feeding on the forum. The response - don't do it! You will kill your ferrets! They will become aggressive! Why would you want to feed raw food when there is a great commercial food like Totally Ferret available? I quickly became the weirdo on that forum who didn't vaccinate and fed my ferrets raw meat. Mostly people stopped replying to any of my posts on the subject because it was just too far "out there" for them to even want to discuss.

Now raw feeding has become much, much more widely accepted in the ferret community. They are about 10 years behind the dog and cat community on this but better late than never

Vaccines are starting to be questioned more, although most people still vaccinate out of fear. Again they are about 10 years behind the dog and cat communities, maybe more but there is so much progress towards more forward thinking on the subject. Perhaps the next step will be for routine use of chemicals to be questioned.

If this were a holistic dog forum, my views would actually be seen as moderate since I do vaccinate puppies and give the dogs HW prevention and I will use spot ons when needed. There would be a number of people here who had mutli-generation naturally reared, no vaccines, no chemicals dogs. But since it is a holistic ferret forum, my views are still seen as rather bizarre and extreme by the majority of people. It doesn't really bother me, I've always just been waiting for the ferret world to catch up with me

I would highly suggest anyone interested in learning about holistic care join pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BeyondVaccination/

Group Descritpion:
"Infectious diseases and parasites are part of nature too, and preventing illness is part of holistic animal care. Are vaccines, pesticides, and antibiotics and other drugs the only tools we have to deal with these problems? Of course not!
If you are starting to question annual or "booster" shots, or vaccination in general, or are already committed to alternative methods of building excellent health and disease resistance in your pets, this list is for you. We're here to talk about holistic and alternative health for dogs and cats, the relationship of health to common vaccination practices, and how to create radiant good health in our companion animals in order to protect them from disease. This list is open to those who are just starting to wonder about these practices, as well as those who have more experience. The list is focused on dogs and cats, but discussions of other species of animals are welcome too.

BeyondVaccination is not intended as a debate list, although there is no "party line" and many viewpoints are welcome. But if you are basically in support of animal vaccination and the routine use of pesticides and drug therapies, and are not questioning those practices, and want to argue about those subjects, this list isn't the place.

This list is archived on Onibasu.com, so if you want to search the archives more efficiently than by using Yahoo's search, that's the place to do it.

Also, before posting to the list, please read our list policy on commercial content in posts at www.caberfeidh.com/CommercialPolicy.htm."

Last Edit: Jul 20, 2008 13:08:44 GMT -5 by aleronferrets

Forum Administrator
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Heartworm and ferrets Jul 20, 2008 22:11:20 GMT -5

Post by Forum Administrator on Jul 20, 2008 22:11:20 GMT -5

ADMINISTRATORS NOTE:

I can certainly see where you both are coming from. Aleronferrets, I very much agree that part of a holistic lifestyle means holistic diet AND care. I myself have wresteled with the whole "do I use a preventative, do I not". Josiesmom, I can understand your concearn over HW, especially being in Florida where it runs rampant. Im sure you've weighed the benefits and risks of using a preventative vs. not using a preventative (and obviously the risk of NOT using one is greater to you). Ultimately we will all have our own opinions and we all just have to do what we feel is best for our animals. Its a matter of weighing the risks really. What may be an acceptable risk for one person might not be to another.

I encourage you to both continue to calmly and logically defend your "positions". Friendly debate livens up the forum and at this time I dont feel that at this time this argument has "gotten out of hand" or anything like that and I'd like to keep it that way.

I encourage both of you to not take anything the other says "too personally". Feel free to continue discussing this subject and if it comes down to it and you arent getting the other to see your point of view, "agree to disagree". You are both very intelligent people and valuable assets to the Holistic Ferret Team, I'd hate to see one of your get upset or take something personally. Keep things friendly and polite and I think that everything will be just fine.

To all members reading this:

The decision to use (or not use) heartworm preventative is a personal choice. One that requires plenty of thought and the weighing of risks and benefits.

At this time Holistic Ferret does not have a clear cut "opinion" of whether or not one should use a HW preventative on their ferrets. You will need to read the info on the site and make a choice for yourself.

We DO however feel that flea/tick preventatives are uncessary, and we do not encourage the use of them unless your pet is already invested and you are unable to rid them of fleas/ticks in any other way. We encourage you to research natural alternatives for flea and tick prevention.

josiesmom
Going Natural

Posts: 130

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 21, 2008 3:37:17 GMT -5

Post by josiesmom on Jul 21, 2008 3:37:17 GMT -5

I didn't say there were never any problems from the actual product- only pointing out that products are often misapplied. It is well known that most prescribed medicines are NOT given at the rate prescribed nor for the duration prescribed which results in resistance being built up. Over the counter drugs are typically misused also. One photograph of one dog having a reaction to a misapplied product is NOT convincing that the product is detrimental - just that that particular dog has a sensitivity to an misapplied product.

Even the comment supplied with the photo notes that the other dog in the family had no adverse reaction. Was that other dog a white dog also? Its been my experience with other animal species, as well as dogs, that those with pink skin will exhibit many more sensitivities than those with dark skin. This needs to be taken into account when applying topical products.

Do I think that comparing a grass allergy to a product reaction is a fair comparison? Yes! My point was that there are plenty of animals(people too) that have reactions to completely "natural" things in their environment. Not ALL adverse reactions happen as a result of contact with a man made product.

The dog with the grass allergy was extensively tested at three different vet clinics and all determined the dog WAS in fact allergic to grasses. When the dog was kept inside for extended periods of time the irritations subsided. When the dog was taken outside and allowed to roam through fields and lawns, the irritations returned. The dog was only irritated in areas that came in contact with the grasses - his belly, the pads of his feet and legs, his chest, lower neck and chin, his butt, and the bottom edges of his ears. Interestingly enough this dog had four white feet, a white chin and bib, almost non existent belly hair and mottled skin on his belly. This dog was a mutt consisting of Pit Bull, Weimaraner, and deer hound. His coloration was liver with white points as noted and his body style was long legged, round boned from the pitbull, but almost lanky like the deer hound.

Yes, this is a holistic forum - does that mean it is a forum to abandon ALL scientific remedies and preventives? That remains to be seen, but I doubt it. I employ many "natural" methods but I do NOT believe in some holistic remedies such as the "water memory" and dilute approach. I believe there is definitely medicinal benefits form herbs - but doubt such herbs work for ferrets because they lack the ability to digest them. If ferrets cannot derive nutrients from corn, wheat, rice, potatoes- why would they be able to derive nutrients from herbs?

Will a natural diet bolster and strengthen our ferret's natural immunities? Certainly! I definitely believe that! Can exposure to more natural light rhythms improve our ferret's health? Yup! I believe that too! Does allowing our ferrets more access to natural exploration and exercise offer them better health? Of Course I believe that too! But there can be many assaults upon our little friend's bodies.

It isn't hard to believe that one particular ferret doesn't have a natural immunity to a specific assault, or better put a specific ferret may be sensitive to a particular assault.There is NO ferret that has a "natural" immunity to a heart worm infestation or a mosquito bite.

As Giuli noted we each need to do what we feel is right for our ferrets, being able to make an informed choice is what we all should do. I DO live in a high risk area ( Central Florida) and am well aware of many diseases that Mosquitoes are known to spread.

My ferrets DO go outside and usually in the evening or early morning - because its cooler for the ferrets, but still not cool enough to stop a mosquito from transferring the heart worm larvae - that would have to be below 57 F. And that only happens for a few days in the winter.

I've been using Revolution now for two years on all my ferrets and have not experienced any adverse reactions from the applications. I am dividing the kitten dosage between two ferrets (which is a detour from the recommended dosage of one vial being safe for use on a kitten up to 5lbs) but as my ferrets are not even close to 5 lbs, I feel safe in this diversion from the prescribed dosage and perhaps because the ferrets are not receiving a "massive" dose - then they aren't showing any adverse reactions?

Endemic regions for heart worm infections as reported to the American Heart worm Society by reporting clinics as of 2005:
www.heartwormsociety.org/article.asp?id=1141#where

Heart worm is a serious concern for those of us in Florida (and in any part of the world where there are mosquitoes) it only takes ONE bite from ONE infected Mosquito to introduce a life threatening disease to my ferret. Once a ferret gets heart worm its too late to treat for it. Treating ferrets for heart worm does NOT have a good prognosis. The dying worm(s) often kill the ferret by blocking blood vessels. This is a definite case of less than a ml is worth several cc's of cure!

Aleronferrets expressed concerns that if a man made product issues cautions against contact with human skin that must equate to that particular product being unsuitable for application upon a ferret. I supplied many instances of a "natural"product with cautions against skin contact as well as other personal hazards.

So far every natural pest repellent or pesticide I've researched uses "natural" ingredients that can definitely harm my ferret either by ingestion, breathing the vapors, or will irritate the eyes and skin or cause outright organ toxicity!

If there is a proven safe "natural" product that will protect my ferrets from heart worm, then I'm all for learning about it! I don't believe that raising ferrets "holistically" means just "hoping" they don't have to fight an assault by heart worms!

As for the links Aleronferrets supplied - I doubt I'll be visiting as I DO believe that vaccinations have a place in ferret care. By law ferrets in Florida have to be vaccinated against rabies. The law states yearly, but since most rabies vaccines are effective for three years, I'll wait for the third year because I DO worry about vaccine reactivity. While this may reduce the chance of my ferrets having a reaction to the rabies vaccine, it will NOT preclude them from being killed should they bite a person and their rabies vaccine is not current within that year.

I also believe in distemper vaccines. This concern stems from the fact that Distemper virus is highly contagious, can be spread by air, contaminated food & water, fecal or urine contact 6 to 22 days AFTER deposit and is present in many wildlife populations. When I take my ferrets outdoors I have no way of knowing where that raccoon peed, or that stray dog coughed. So I DO believe that a distemper vaccine is appropriate for my ferrets. But that is food for another thread- my point being that there is holistic care and holistic fanaticism. I do not think a ferrant has to be one or the other, but can combine scientific and holistic methods to allow superb health for the ferret.

Cheers,
Kim

aleronferrets
Guest

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 21, 2008 21:43:28 GMT -5

Post by aleronferrets on Jul 21, 2008 21:43:28 GMT -5

Its been my experience with other animal species, as well as dogs, that those with pink skin will exhibit many more sensitivities than those with dark skin. This needs to be taken into account when applying topical products.

Most ferrets have pink skin too. Also in dogs dilute colors are more likely to have vaccine reactions and chemical sensitivies. I'd suspect that the same is true of dilute ferrets, as it has to do with changes in the immune system due to the mutation causing the dilute coloration.

Not ALL adverse reactions happen as a result of contact with a man made product.

Was it stated some where on this thread that reactions only occur with man made substances?

Interestingly enough this dog had four white feet, a white chin and bib, almost non existent belly hair and mottled skin on his belly. This dog was a mutt consisting of Pit Bull, Weimaraner, and deer hound.

FWIW pits and weims are both prone to immune system issues (which is what allergies stem from) and skin issues.

Yes, this is a holistic forum - does that mean it is a forum to abandon ALL scientific remedies and preventives? That remains to be seen, but I doubt it.

I don't think it was ever stated that one shouldn't use any allopathic treatments. But it isn't very holistic minded to apply toxins to your pets on a regular basis, even if they are supposedly "safe".

I believe there is definitely medicinal benefits form herbs - but doubt such herbs work for ferrets because they lack the ability to digest them. If ferrets cannot derive nutrients from corn, wheat, rice, potatoes- why would they be able to derive nutrients from herbs?

I suspect ferrets can digest processed/broken down herbs, veggies and grains. IMO if they couldn't, insulinoma wouldn't be such a concern with them. I see no reason to think that ferrets couldn't use a powdered or liquid form of herbal supplement.

There is NO ferret that has a "natural" immunity to a heart worm infestation or a mosquito bite.

You may want to research that a bit more. The reason that HW is uncommon in ferrets and cats is not because they are less likely to be bitten by a mosquito carrying it but because they are not the natural host for HW. Because they are not a natural host, their bodies are not an ideal environment for HW larvae and in most cases the cat or ferret's immune system will fight off an infestation. So in that way, all cats and ferrets have a natural defense against HW.

I've been using Revolution now for two years on all my ferrets and have not experienced any adverse reactions from the applications. I am dividing the kitten dosage between two ferrets (which is a detour from the recommended dosage of one vial being safe for use on a kitten up to 5lbs) but as my ferrets are not even close to 5 lbs, I feel safe in this diversion from the prescribed dosage and perhaps because the ferrets are not receiving a "massive" dose - then they aren't showing any adverse reactions?

I actually have less concern about acute reactions to the chemicals than I do issues that aren't as easily seen, until it is too late such as chronic immune system issues or cancer.

Endemic regions for heart worm infections as reported to the American Heart worm Society by reporting clinics as of 2005:
www.heartwormsociety.org/article.asp?id=1141#where

As for the links Aleronferrets supplied - I doubt I'll be visiting as I DO believe that vaccinations have a place in ferret care.

It is unfortunate that you are so close minded about holistic care that you aren't even open to learning about potential issues caused by chemicals or vaccines. The email list I suggested is very fact-based and does not allow misinformation to be posted for or against holistic care.

By law ferrets in Florida have to be vaccinated against rabies. The law states yearly, but since most rabies vaccines are effective for three years, I'll wait for the third year because I DO worry about vaccine reactivity. While this may reduce the chance of my ferrets having a reaction to the rabies vaccine, it will NOT preclude them from being killed should they bite a person and their rabies vaccine is not current within that year.

Since you are already breaking the law with your choice on rabies vaccines (waiting three years), why not just titer them every three years after the intial vaccine? I find it easy enough to avoid issues of not having rabies vaccines - only family and trusted friends handle my ferrets.

But that is food for another thread- my point being that there is holistic care and holistic fanaticism. I do not think a ferrant has to be one or the other, but can combine scientific and holistic methods to allow superb health for the

LOL I am faaaaar from a holistic fanatic.

josiesmom
Going Natural

Posts: 130

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 3:12:33 GMT -5

Post by josiesmom on Jul 22, 2008 3:12:33 GMT -5

Aeleronferrets wrote:

You may want to research that a bit more. The reason that HW is uncommon in ferrets and cats is not because they are less likely to be bitten by a mosquito carrying it but because they are not the natural host for HW. Because they are not a natural host, their bodies are not an ideal environment for HW larvae and in most cases the cat or ferret's immune system will fight off an infestation. So in that way, all cats and ferrets have a natural defense against HW.

That assumption is why many ferrets and cats end up suffering and dieing from heart worm infections. Cats and Ferrets are NOT immune to heart worm infections. They ARE very definitely a natural host. The very same heart worm that affects dogs affects cats and ferrets. Not only do these heart worms attack our domestic animals they have also become a problem for wildlife - being found in raccoons, foxes,coyotes, wolves, bobcat, jaguar, tiger, otter, muskrat, bear, horse, orangutan, gibbon, sea lion and even humans! Many of those animals previously noted grow up and thrive all "naturally" -where is their "natural Immunity"?

They are warm blooded and therefore attract biting mosquitoes, there is no way to tell if that particular blood sucker on your ferret or cat is a carrier of heart worm larvae. Waiting until you see or hear a problem from your pet is NOT the way to deal with the life ending disease of heart worm. By the time you hear your pet coughing, or see it having trouble breathing, or notice the pet just doesn't seem well, or realize your pet doesn't have the energy it use too a month or two ago it is too late- the heart worm has taken up residency in the heart and the animal's lungs have been compromised!

Because cats infected with heart worm are often infected with just the male worm, tests for heart worm will not give back correct results because current tests only test for enzymes found in the female heart worm. Also tests for microfilaria in the blood aren't applicable to cats because often these microfilaria aren't in the blood, but that does NOT mean the cat is immune to infection- just that the infection takes a different route- usually the lungs. Also worms that do make it to the heart cause tremendous problems because it only takes as few as one to three worms to kill the cat!

Mosquitoes are attracted to the carbon dioxide all animals breathe out- the only way a cat or ferret would not "naturally" attract a mosquito would be if the animal were not breathing anymore!

There is a considerable difference in the way people interact with their cats, than they do with their dogs. Cats tend to sleep a lot normally and usually in out of the way places, so its conceivable that cat owners wouldn't notice the signs of a heart worm infection until the cat is really in distress. Cats are often allowed free access to the outdoors and spend a considerable amount of time out of view of their owners. While dogs may be reported and treated more often for heart worm this does NOT equate to cats having a natural immunity- just that the cats are not being observed or interacted with as much as the dogs are.

Not many people play fetch or fly ball with their cat, or use their cat to herd animals so changes in a cat's activity levels would easily be passed off as the cat is just being "lazy" or is getting more mature.

There is significantly more data from vets regarding dogs than cats or ferrets because let's face it, dogs are the most popular pet. Because there is more data on dogs and heart worms doesn't mean that cats and ferrets are "naturally" immune. Because the dog is the more common host for heart worm does NOT mean other warm blooded animals are naturally immune, often the infestation takes up residence elsewhere in the body instead of the heart.

Because it can only take ONE worm to kill a cat or a ferret, heart worm prevention SHOULD be taken seriously! Not passed off with,"my pet is "naturally" immune. Trying to cure your cat or ferret (especially ferrets) from the heart worm infestation will likely result in the animal's death. Prevention with a known clinically tested product like Selamectin or Ivermectin solution will offer more protection than simply thinking the animal is naturally immune.

I am definitely NOT close minded about holistic care, vaccines or chemicals! I do considerable research regarding what I choose to use for myself and my pets and make an educated choice regarding which methods or products to employ. So far every "alternative" offered as a "holistic/natural" approach to prevention of mosquito bites and therefore transmission of heart worm infection has NOT convinced me that it is indeed safe for my ferret!

Aleronferrets: I actually have less concern about acute reactions to the chemicals than I do issues that aren't as easily seen, until it is too late such as chronic immune system issues or cancer.

None of the components of Selamectin are registered as carcinogens by IARC, NTP or OHSA. Selamectin actually is in the Botanical Class of chemicals.
www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC41305

A heart worm infestation IS a chronic infection NOT an acute infection. You don't see a problem for the infected animal until months, sometimes years after a heart worm has taken up residency! Many ferrets presented for necropsy that "just died" did so as a result of a heart worm infestation the owner never realized the ferret even had!

Considering the millions of animals veterinarians have prescribed Revolution for, if there was a serious health risk from this product we'd definitely heard about it by now!

Because of the research I've done I feel that Selamectin (Revolution) is a much more safe product to use than any of the other spot on, pour on, pill form or chewable sold as a heart worm preventive. Using it as a preventive is NOT putting my ferrets at risk and keeps them safe not only from heart worm but also from many other parasites known to attack my small friends.

Aleronferrets maintains that such regular use of a man made chemical is not in keeping with a holistic approach, but has NOT offered a viable alternative holistically acceptable natural heart worm preventive.

Any of the products offered I've researched so far are chock full of "natural" chemicals that would need to be applied daily, are highly irritant to skin, eyes, lungs or even toxic to organs or are known to create anemia, or can ven cause a miscarriage to pregnant animals!

So far the ONLY known issues with Selamectin are at extremely high doses given daily - which is NOT what is recommended for proper protection.

Again, I'll stand by my statement that just because it is "natural" does NOT mean it is safe! And I don't think that holistically caring for my ferret means total abandonment of scientific modalities!

Aleronferrets: I suspect ferrets can digest processed/broken down herbs, veggies and grains. IMO if they couldn't, insulinoma wouldn't be such a concern with them. I see no reason to think that ferrets couldn't use a powdered or liquid form of herbal supplement

What is "suspected" and what is fact are completely different things! It is a FACT that ferrets do NOT have the digestive apparatus designed to digest plant matter. Because of this FACT is precisely WHY we are seeing such incidences of insulinoma/ pancreatitis.

Ferrets CANNOT survive on a diet based on vegetation! Any ferret offered a "vegetarian" diet will die! It may make the ferret care taker feel better to offer medicinal herbs and supposedly nutrient rich plants to their carnivorous ferret, but it won't do the ferret any good at all!

Being as the digestive process breaks down food to a cellular & molecular level in order for the body to utilize it means that it makes no difference really what form that food matter had at ingestion. Forcing plant matter into the ferret in powder or liquid form does NOT make it any easier on the ferret's system to digest such foreign substance. Ferrets are NOT vegetarians! books.google.com/books?id=LdFjecaFqOkC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=Vegetarian (go to the link and input "vegetarian" in the search this book box.)

Maybe our different viewpoints stem from a difference in interpretation of "holistic". I don't see "holistic" as being herbs only, non- man made only, or that I should turn my back on scientific methods.

I see "holistic" as offering care for the entire animal, not just one specific aspect of that animal. I am convinced that offeringmy ferrets free roam with plenty of mental and physical stimulation improves their minds and bodies; offering my ferrets regular hours of lighting and full spectrum lighting will help their internal clocks; feeding my ferrets their whole prey/ raw diet offers their systems optimum nutrients, and while this will strengthen their immune system I recognize that my ferrets have already been compromised by early weaning, early surgeries and that they can come under attack from natural parasites so with a little help from proven scientific fronts I can reduce or eliminate those problems thereby offering my ferret's entire systems optimum health.

Cheers,
Kim

aleronferrets
Guest

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 9:01:33 GMT -5

Post by aleronferrets on Jul 22, 2008 9:01:33 GMT -5

That assumption is why many ferrets and cats end up suffering and dieing from heart worm infections. Cats and Ferrets are NOT immune to heart worm infections. They ARE very definitely a natural host.

Actually it is pretty widely accepted that cats are not the natural host and do indeed have natural resistance to HW. Even in studies which cats were purposely infected with HW less than 25% of them developed HW infections. While there are no such studies in ferrets, they are also not the natural host for HW and also have natural resistance to them. If this weren't the case, there would be far more HW positive cats and ferrets and the percentages of HW+ ferrets and cats would be similar to that of dogs.

"Cats are resistant hosts of heartworms, and microfilaremia, (the presence of heartworm offspring in the blood of the host animal), is uncommon (usually less than 20% of cases). When present, microfilaremia is inconsistent and short-lived. Some cats appear to be able to rid themselves of the infection spontaneously. It is assumed that such cats may have developed a strong immune response to the heartworms, which causes the death of the parasites. These heartworms may die as a result of an inability to thrive within a given cat's body." www.heartwormsociety.org/article.asp?id=16

"However, cats are not the natural host for Heartworms and as a result they rarely reproduce in the cat. As a result, microfilariae are generally not produced and cats often have infections of only a few worms, whereas dogs develop infections of up to a few hundred worms in the heart." www.nsvh.com/heartworm.htm

"Experimental infection of the cat is more difficult than in the dog; <25% of L3 reach adulthood. This resistance is also reflected in natural infections, in which feline heartworm burdens are usually less than 10, and typically only 2–4 worms.(2) Other indications of the cat's inherent resistance to this parasite are a shortened period of worm patency, high frequency of amicrofilaremia or low microfilaria counts, and shortened life span of adult heartworms (2–3 years)" www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00037.htm

"Due to their resistance to the parasite and the much smaller numbers of parasites typically present when a feline is infected, cats have some natural advantages to help them battle this disease. They have even been known to spontaneously rid themselves of a heartworm infestation, seemingly by "hyperactivating" their body's immune response." www.vcaasheranimalhospital.com/health/health-heartworm02.html

Considering the millions of animals veterinarians have prescribed Revolution for, if there was a serious health risk from this product we'd definitely heard about it by now!

Do you feel that allopathic vets consider overvaccination and overexposure to chemicals to contribute to immune system related problems?

Using it as a preventive is NOT putting my ferrets at risk and keeps them safe not only from heart worm but also from many other parasites known to attack my small friends.

Seriously, you don't have even the smallest amount of hesitation in applying pesticide to your small friends every month? You really don't believe for a minute that there is any posisbility of ill effects from it? If that is true, you are a drug company's dream

Aleronferrets maintains that such regular use of a man made chemical is not in keeping with a holistic approach, but has NOT offered a viable alternative holistically acceptable natural heart worm preventive.

Why would I offer a "holistically acceptable" heartworm prevention for ferrets when I don't use one? My dogs are on ivermectin during warm weather, usually given every 6 weeks. They are at high risk for HW being that they are dogs (the natural host for HW).

My prevention for the cats and ferrets? Since they already have a good deal of natural resistance to HW, they should be able to be kept HW free through promoting good health and a strong immune system. IMO the risk of HW in ferrets or cats does not call for the use of pesticides on or in them.

And I don't think that holistically caring for my ferret means total abandonment of scientific modalities!

And again, no one here has said otherwise.

Ferrets CANNOT survive on a diet based on vegetation! Any ferret offered a "vegetarian" diet will die!

You seem to be getting rather upset and have moved beyond having a reasonable discussion here. No one said ferrets can or should be fed a vegetarian diet.

It may make the ferret care taker feel better to offer medicinal herbs and supposedly nutrient rich plants to their carnivorous ferret, but it won't do the ferret any good at all!

Through the use of herbal and homeopathic supplements, one of my ferret owning friends kept her adrenal ferrets symptom free for years. Perhaps there is some benefit to them after all?

Maybe our different viewpoints stem from a difference in interpretation of "holistic". I don't see "holistic" as being herbs only, non- man made only, or that I should turn my back on scientific methods.

Saying that holistic means "herbs only" kind of shows that you don't have a good understanding of holistic care. No one said anything along the lines of holistic means "herbs only", certainly not me.

I see "holistic" as offering care for the entire animal, not just one specific aspect of that animal.

Holistic care does mean seeing the animal as a whole. If you can't see how annual vaccines and routine use of chemicals and drugs can harm the animal as a whole, while treating one specific area there isn't much else to say.

josiesmom
Going Natural

Posts: 130

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 10:43:59 GMT -5

Post by josiesmom on Jul 22, 2008 10:43:59 GMT -5

Aleronferrets writes:

It used to be "widely accepted" that the world was flat - until explorers proved otherwise. It used to be "widely accepted" to raise ferrets on milk, bread and honey until ferrets began expiring on that program. Because it is only the MALE heart worm that survives within the cat means that they cannot propogate. The heart worms don't always make it to the heart- they often end up elsewhere, usually the lungs. This assault on the lungs is often approached and treated as other respiratory problems.

check out this site for the myths that abound regarding cats and heart worm:
www.knowheartworms.org/mythone.asp

If you read further in the article you quoted you'd see they said:

However, heartworms do not need to develop into adults to cause significant pulmonary damage in cats, and consequences can still be very serious when cats are infected by mosquitoes carrying heartworm larvae. Newly arriving worms and the subsequent death of most of these same worms can result in acute pulmonary inflammation response and lung injury. This initial phase is often misdiagnosed as asthma or allergic bronchitis but in actuality is part of a syndrome now known as Heartworm Associated Respiratory Disease (HARD).

and an even MORE significant statement:

Although outdoor cats are at greater risk of being infected, a relatively high percentage of cats considered by their owners to be totally indoor pets also become infected. Overall, the distribution of feline heartworm infection in the United States seems to parallel that of dogs but with lower total numbers. There is no predictable age in cats for becoming infected with heartworms. Cases have been reported in cats from nine months to 17 years of age, the average being four years at diagnosis or death.

Aleron notes:

Through the use of herbal and homeopathic supplements, one of my ferret owning friends kept her adrenal ferrets symptom free for years. Perhaps there is some benefit to them after all?

Adrenal problems often go into remission for extended periods of time - with and without medicinal care. Ferrets getting normal allopathic treatments have adrenal symptoms that go into remission for years too. But in all cases the disease still ends up killing the ferret.

aleronferrets says:

You seem to be getting rather upset and have moved beyond having a reasonable discussion here. No one said ferrets can or should be fed a vegetarian diet

you definitely indicated you saw no reason why ferrets cannot benefit from plant products when you said:

Which would indicate that plants are an acceptable source of nutrients for ferrets in your mind.

Aleronferrets said:

Why would I offer a "holistically acceptable" heartworm prevention for ferrets when I don't use one?

Then apparently your contention is to let the ferret fend for itself regarding parasitic assaults? Or to take a wait and see if my ferrets get sick approach? That may well work for you, but I'd rather take a proactive approach. Maybe if you live in a more temperate zone where mosquitoes don't thrive, that approach is o.k; but when I read the information that reports how many indoor only cats can contract heart worm (28% of the cats reported with heart worm are indoor only) and I live in the tropics where mosquitoes bring many more diseases besides heart worm I WILL provide a man made preventive that is tested safe for use on my ferrets!

aleronferrets asks:

Do you feel that allopathic vets consider overvaccination and overexposure to chemicals to contribute to immune system related problems?

I have no idea what allopathic vets consider. I do not think vaccinations are needed at the high rate they are given. I believe distemper vaccines help protect our ferrets and as I stated before in my area and with what I do with my ferrets I have to vaccinate for rabies. Although I do not do it as often as they suggest/require.

My routine use of Revolution is helping my ferrets stay parasite free no harm is coming to them. Something I would NOT be able to say if they were infected with heart worms (and other parasites).

Cheers,
Kim

Last Edit: Jul 22, 2008 11:07:39 GMT -5 by josiesmom

aleronferrets
Guest

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 16:50:22 GMT -5

Post by aleronferrets on Jul 22, 2008 16:50:22 GMT -5

and an even MORE significant statement:
Overall, the distribution of feline heartworm infection in the United States seems to parallel that of dogs but with lower total numbers.

And why do you supposed there numbers are so much lower? Could it be, perhaps that the information I posted was correct and cats have natural resistance to HW?

Nah these ferrets died of insulinoma. Adrenal doesn't go into total remission on it's own for years, with no further symptoms. Seems quite possible that they were helped by the use of supplements, even if you can't accept that.

Which would indicate that plants are an acceptable source of nutrients for ferrets in your mind.

You are grasping here. As I posted before, I started feeding raw long before most people even questioned feeding their ferrets grain. People felt I was no doubt going to kill my ferrets with raw feeding back then. Now people feel like I will no doubt kill my ferrets because they aren't vaccinated or given monthly pesticides. My vet though, can't believe what awesome shape Morgan is in for an 8 year old ferret and he sees LOTS of ferrets. The proof is in the pudding they say

And I'd rather not dump posion into my ferrets for something they are highly unlikely of ever getting.

Maybe if you live in a more temperate zone where mosquitoes don't thrive, that approach is o.k;

The approach is "ok" regardless of where I live. I live in Ohio we certainly have HW and mosquitos. Remember I mentioned my dogs being on HW prevention seasonally?

My routine use of Revolution is helping my ferrets stay parasite free no harm is coming to them. Something I would NOT be able to say if they were infected with heart worms (and other parasites).

My pets are parasite free without the routine use of pesticides and I feel better knowing they aren't exposed to unneeded toxins.

josiesmom
Going Natural

Posts: 130

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 19:26:12 GMT -5

Post by josiesmom on Jul 22, 2008 19:26:12 GMT -5

JosiesMom: and an even MORE significant statement:
Overall, the distribution of feline heartworm infection in the United States seems to parallel that of dogs but with lower total numbers.

Aleronferrets: And why do you supposed there numbers are so much lower? Could it be, perhaps that the information I posted was correct and cats have natural resistance to HW?

No, the numbers are shown to PARALLEL those found in dogs, the reason they are lower is likely because there are fewer cats quantitatively. IOW what their reports showed is that the incidences of heart worm infection are similar between dogs and cats, but because there are more dogs than cats, the numbers of cats is lower - that's all it is saying.

How do you explain away the fact that of the cats being reported by vets as having heart worm, that 28% of those cats were kept exclusively indoors? Another reason for the lower numbers can easily be because the same tests used for dogs do not offer reliable results, because the female heart worm rarely survives within the cat and the current tests rely on enzymes from the female worm skin the tests cannot be accurate.

Currently from the information given there are a lot of people that think as you do regarding preventive measures and their dogs, as only 55% of dog owners actually offer any type of regular heart worm preventive. Leaving 45% of the dog population unprotected.

The numbers here put heart worm infections in a better perspective for more informed decisions:
www.newrossvet.com/heartworm0001.htm

In your state of Ohio in 2004 there were almost 5,000 cases reported, in my state of Florida, there were over 32,000 more than 6 times the cases reported in your state!

JosiesMom: Adrenal problems often go into remission for extended periods of time - with and without medicinal care. Ferrets getting normal allopathic treatments have adrenal symptoms that go into remission for years too. But in all cases the disease still ends up killing the ferret.

Aleronferrets: Nah these ferrets died of insulinoma. Adrenal doesn't go into total remission on it's own for years, with no further symptoms. Seems quite possible that they were helped by the use of supplements, even if you can't accept that.

I didn't state adrenal goes into remission for years o its own, I stated it will go into remission for years with allopathic treatment, I DID say that it often goes into remission for extended periods of time on its own (not years). The remissive ferrets could have been helped by a particular alignment of the planets or a change in their lighting or a reduction in the home stress levels also.

So far you have not convinced me that ferrets CAN digest plant matter enough to derive any "medicinal" or "supplemental" benefits. If ferrets cannot digest plants enough to obtain nutritive benefits from them, how could ferrets digest plants enough to obtain medicinal benefits from them?

There is more to digestion than just chomping, swallowing, churning and expelling. Digestion takes place at a cellular level after the food matter has been prepared by the digestive tract.

It is well proved that the ferret's digestive tract is NOT adequate to digest plant matter. Plant cellular structure is by nature fibrous which the ferret has no means to digest. They have no cecum which basically is a vat that all herbivorous animals have near the end of the digestive tract. This vat is filled with bacteria that ferment and are specifically the type to break down the fibrous plant cell walls.

Animal cells on the other hand don't NEED a fibrous cell wall because the animal uses a skeleton for support (wherein the plant relies on stacks and stacks of walled cells to support itself). This means that the thin membrane surrounding an animal cell can easily be broken down with in the ferret's simple digestive tract.

Aleronferrets:

And I'd rather not dump posion into my ferrets for something they are highly unlikely of ever getting.

Revolution is NOT a "poison" it is a preventive against the animal becoming parasitized. Revolution is NOT a carcinogen, nor is it toxic to my ferrets or myself when administered as directed. IF there were a safe effective natural product available, I'd definitely give that some scrutiny and maybe even use it.

But so far you, who are so quick to claim that I am "poisoning" my ferrets with this clinically tested product, have NOT been able to offer any other solution except to "wing it" and hope my ferrets supposed natural immunity will keep them free from a life threatening infestation while they live in a state with the second highest rate of heart worm cases reported!

All of the "natural" solutions offered on various "natural" pet care sites continually list suggestions to use products I know to be highly irritant and even toxic to my ferrets!

Its one thing to eschew accepted protocols, but quite another to do so and not offer a viable alternative. Hope and pray is NOT an alternative I choose to use!

Cheers,
Kim

aleronferrets
Guest

Heartworm and ferrets Jul 22, 2008 23:56:05 GMT -5

Post by aleronferrets on Jul 22, 2008 23:56:05 GMT -5

How do you explain away the fact that of the cats being reported by vets as having heart worm, that 28% of those cats were kept exclusively indoors?

Indoor cats are more likely to be fed a poor diet (low quality food), be overvaccinated and underexercised. All of those factors would lead them to have a poor immune system, which would make them less resitant to fighting off HW infection. In addition to that, having been exposed to HW far less their immune system is less likely to have built an immune response to HW microfilaria or larvae. Outdoor cats are more likely to have at least a partially natural diet, fewer vaccines and be overall more hardy from a more natural lifestyle leading to a healthier immune system. Since they are likely exposed to microfilaria more often than indoor cats, they are more likely to have a string immune response.

Truth be told some dogs certainly have immune response to HW microfilaria and/or larvae as well. If they didn't nearly all unprotected dogs in at risk areas would be HW+ and that isn't the case.

Currently from the information given there are a lot of people that think as you do regarding preventive measures and their dogs, as only 55% of dog owners actually offer any type of regular heart worm preventive. Leaving 45% of the dog population unprotected.

I know some excellent dog owners who are very holistic minded and don't give HW prevention to their dogs. I have looked into the options and decided that I'm more comfortable w/using them part fo the year than not. Doesn't mean the people I know who don't are ignorant, uncaring or other wise poor pet owners.

In your state of Ohio in 2004 there were almost 5,000 cases reported, in my state of Florida, there were over 32,000 more than 6 times the cases reported in your state!

Not surprising since you don't have a winter.