Seventh heaven goes raw

[Heather]

One of the things you're seeing right now is the benefits of raw. As frustrating as it is. These guys are getting a good meal and then they can go for long periods of time without food. They want their kibbles. This is something they couldn't do before on the kibble without feeling the ill effects. It's not good for them but they can do it and as you're seeing they're starting to recognise what you're feeding is indeed food. That's most of the battle. I found just before my little girls suddenly switched, I had to scruff to get them started and then it was like "oh well, I'm hungry and this is food" and then they would eat it from the spoon. It was almost like they were going oh, ya right...this is food, not the other stuff. I found that once kibble was out of the equation, the hard core hold outs would flip within a few days. Once they start eating willingly from the spoon it's only a matter of time... you're doing great...so are they. They're hard core kibble addicts, give yourself a pat on the back. We can do this. You can do this You'll get that stubborn little sod, Buster eating raw you'll see This is the monotonous part of the switch. You've found the idea that you're going to work with. Everyone will eat it but you have to supervise, they won't eat it on their own. Right now, you're trying to work the kibbles imprint from their mind. Shortly, they will start to look at the food that your giving them as their primary food and they will start to eat it on their own.
ciao for now

[ferretpalooza]

I do have a little concern over taurine and calcium. They are basically only eating cooked chicken soup with raw chicken breasts pieces, and egg/heavy cream mix with ground meat. Is this providing enough vitamins for them? Ill keep plugging away but I wondered about adding bone meal to the soupies if I can get it pure from the health food store. I read someones post about little pieces of egg shell in their ferrets poo...is anything being digested from it if it comes out in the same form???

[Heather]

Remember one thing about starting feeding raw. It's balance over time. Don't panic about the insufficiencies of your diet just yet. One thing at a time. Taurine can be added by capsule if you're really concerned. It has no flavour and you can just open the capsule and sprinkle it on the dinner. By far the best way to get taurine into your furchild is to convince your furbabies that heart (of any animal that you can get) is a treat. Remember, by feeding raw meat you're feeding taurine to your furchild.
I don't like processed bone meal...it's cooked, baked to oblivion, just like kibbles, but that's my personal opinion. Cleaned, finely ground egg shells is still your better bet, with real bone being your absolute best. You're right, not all the ground egg shell is going to be absorbed you have to grind it fine. I've not had it show up in the litter box when I grind it with a mortar and pestle. If you're actually seeing it showing up then I would think that it might have been ground too coarsely. One thing to keep in mind when your furbabies start eating bone, you will find bone pieces in their stools. The thing to remember is that though some bone is going through and showing up in the stool...a lot of that bone is actually being absorbed with all it's trace minerals being absorbed by the ferret.
Ok?? I will check with you tomorrow
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Last night was not good. They didnt eat much of the meat at soupie time and none during the day. I went to get them out and they were all so lethargic, Max didnt even lift his head. I noticed small round diareah poos all over the place. After they came out, they kept it up on the newspaper. I mixed up egg/cream/hamburger meat and only Bubba would take some but not much if I got it in their mouth they would chew once and spit it out. Buster kept knocking the empty kibble bowl around so I finally caved and gave them kibble for the night. I dont know if taking it completely away right now is working. The bad side of them getting too stressed is it could trigger a bout of ECE and I didnt like the way the poos were looking.

They had kibble last night and they looked a lot better this morning. I made soup with raw chicken chunks again and put it in the pen when I put them up for the afternoon. I did take the kibble out for the next few hours and left the chicken in. My husband came home from out of town and said I am babying them too much and they will start eating if they get hungry enough.

What do you suggest

[mustelidmusk]

Well, I'm a slow-swtch person myself,and I'd be more inclined to keep them spunky and let the change tae a little longer, but that's just me.

There are some ferrets that don't get to the soup thing that will adapt more quikly to a freeze-dried complete diet and then make the sitch to raw. That's how I switched all 4 of my kids. I used the Wysong archetypal I. I sprinkled the shredded dry food in with the kibble. I started with very little and added more over time. The brats then started accepting the chunks of the Archetypal I. I was they coating small pices of chicken with th eshredded archetypal I.

The thing that's nice abouth the archetypal I is that It's a balanced diet, and they cannot easliy pick the kibble out of the shredded food. And there tends to be less tummy upset and "soupy poopy". I f your ferrets have had ECE (especially within the past 6-mos to a year), then you may want to consider trying some freeze-dried food with kibble (served dry) and cut back on the soup.

Stella and chewie streaks come i different meats, and theyre balance diet Same with ZiwiPeak. Even though the freeze-dried foods are not cheap, you canuse them at a pace that you feel you can afford. I do think it will help your ferrets handle the switch a little more easily since the change is less drastic than soup.

-jennifer

[Heather]

You probably did well by giving them back the kibble. I would have done the same thing. There are a couple of things you can do. You can go back to what you were doing before and see if you're guys are willing to try again. This isn't that uncommon a step and by doing this experiment you've also found out that your guys are quite willing to go hungry. Your other option is you can step back a couple of steps and start all over again and use the Archetypal 1 as suggested by Jennifer. It all boils down to comfort levels. I have tried to use it but couldn't get my guys to eat it but that doesn't mean it won't work. Each and every ferret is different and you have 7 furbabies that you're trying to switch. Whatever method you choose, I would definitely not take the kibble away for a little while again. They were obviously eating a lot more of it than was previously believed. That's ok. Let me know what you want to do and we will work it from there.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Where do I find Jennifer's suggestion on the Arch??? They are still picking at the chicken. Bubba is eating a couple of small pieces of beef rib the last two days. Do you think it would help to just put a small amount of regular kibble in one bowl and start mashing kibble in another? What little punks. I just left a little kibble in the cage today and they cleaned it out but wouldnt touch anything else.

[Heather]

Jennifer's suggestion, is in her answer just above my answer to you earlier. Right below your message to me about your furbabies being lathargic and that they had stopped eating, their soupies and chicken. Achetypal 1 is a type of freeze dried meat.... It's not raw, in fact doesn't look anything like raw, but it is much better than kibble. It looks like paper, like cardboard to be honest. It actually looks like layers and layers dried up meat (which is what it is) It is cut in large chunks. Like kibble it has all it's components, and is balanced. As Jennifer stated you can shred it with your kibble and work toward raw that way. I was never able to convince my ferrets to eat it. They would occasionally eat it as a treat (a couple of older ferrets would chew it a bit) I've still got a bag of it sitting on my counter.... It's an alternative if you're interested. I had to special order mine but as ferrets are much more common in your area, it's probably a little more available.
Let's go through what you're presently doing for your guys.
What worked? What didn't? Let's see who's doing what. Who's eating what. With the reindroduction of full kibble your guys have decided that it's the main course. Which is fine...but now we have to regroup and make some decisions. We have to figure out who's eating what and what processes were working for the various fuzzies. With 7 furbabies switching you've got a lot on your plate. Maybe, what you should do is create a spreadsheet of sorts. Name of fuzzy and what you've tried or are going to try. Did they eat it? If so how....willingly, forced or coerced? We need to prevent your guys from getting too stressed and more willing to cooperate with you. Is there one method that appeared to be working the best, that was the easiest for you to control but still was eaten by all your furbabies or at least the majority. The more different methods that you use the more it will feel out of your control and that you're working on the wim of your furbabies (which we are to a degree but we want to get better control over the situation) If you want to go slower and use Jennifer's method, we can work with that too but let's not spread ourselves too thin. Let me know what method you want to use to switch and we will work with that. I don't want to back off so far that the furbabies that are eating some raw decide to go back to kibble all together.
OK??
I will check back in the morning. Let's put together a plan and work on that. I'm here to work with you and your furbabies.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

I would have to special order that food and if it is like a jerky, I doubt they would eat it. Soupies seems to be the preferred method but since they are getting what they want out of the soup, it is a pick and choose. I shredded the raw chicken today in the soup. They may not be chewing as much but may start to get the taste of the reaw. I think Boudreaux is the only on consistantly eating little chunks but he also carries a lot off. I put a piece in everyone's mouth after soupies and they are just starting to carry them off and dump the and the dog comes and eats it. I had made the soup chunky last time but they are also leaving the chucky chicken so the cut up raw gets lost in the cooked chunks. I have more chicken cooking now and am going to make another batch today, creamy like they like it. I also left a couple of thighs out and am going to make a tray of raw soupies cubes and thought I may try putting one in the middle of the soup bowl with a little drizzle of the soup on it. I will make a spreadsheet today, most have just gone back to kibble and drink around anything offensive in the soup bowl. I took the remaining chunks and put it in another bowl with just a little kibble to see if anyone bites. I had gotten two mice from the store so I gave Boudreaux another mouse. He killed it and carried it off in the cage somewhere. I will look for it tonight after playtime to see if anyone bit on it. Im not opposed to taking kibble as it seems as long as there is something familiar, they aint touching the new stuff, just a little leary on starving them, which could just be my sensitivty.

[Heather]

I'm not much into making them good and hungry either. So we will work with it. I don't want them to get too stressed....I don't want you to get too stressed either
No, it's not really like jerky. I don't no how to describe the Archetypal....it's like paper. Pressed cardboard, it probably a better description. When we first ordered it (I ordered it from a pet food store that caters to raw feeders), we actually opened it at the store as the ladies there hadn't seen it either. It was suggested I feed this when I'm travelling as it's better for them than kibble and is really just dehydrated meat. As it is in dried format it's easier to travel with. We weren't exactly impressed (but then I'm not overly impressed with kibble either ) I took it home, and tried to feed it to my guys. Most of it got stashed and as far as I could tell it was never really eaten. Now, some people add water to it, I never did because none of my guys would eat watered down kibbles. It seemed to me rather pointless to water it down. I resorted to a cooler and raw food, really simple.
Let's see who is eating what and how much. I still think that maybe ground up meat in the soupy mix might work better than the chuncks. They can't run off with the ground (that's not entirely true but they're less likely to You're right they're not getting the full benefit of the raw, but I think we can convince them to move up to chunks after they've been eating raw for a little bit. As we have so many of them to convince let's try something really small. If you don't have ground chicken then pieces so small that they're no bigger than your fingernail.
When you left the thighs out for them, did you score them deeply. This will help them to figure out it's food. My guys still like me to score their chicken (they're spoiled I know : but it does seem to work. Otherwise, they just leave it and some of those guys have been eating raw for 4 or 5 years.
If you find the mouse, and it's not been eaten or well chewed you might (this depends entirely on you ) either cut it open or into pieces so that they recognise it as food. Or....a friend of mine did this with her guys. Tie a string to it and play with them. It allows them to get really excited about hunting the mouse (it is after all already dead) and maybe start tearing at it when they're playing. She said it worked very well, but the play session was quite long. She just pulled it around after her and let the furbabies chase her.
There's a couple of ideas, I will check on you later this evening after work and see what kind of road blocks your little guys have devised for you today
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

I found the mouse and Boudreaux had eaten the head off. He just likes to carry the body around the cage and stash. Everyone else will sniff it but noone wanted to chase it on a string. Its gone. Im not going to let him just hunt mice so we'll wait a while on that. I have no problem if he eats them but he's not.

I took two thighs out to make soup cubes with. I have left sections of a chicken wing out several times, and yes, I had big chunks of meat hanging off. No takers.

I made new soupies last night. I made it creamy like they like it. They were leaving too much in the bowl when I made the chunky batch and I thing the different texture of the soup along with the different texture of the raw chunks had them confused. I also made a tray and a half of raw chicken cubes. So when I made the soup this morning, I put a cube of raw smooth soupies in the middle. They had a long playtime this morning so they didnt eat much, plus it was a new batch. Im going to see what they do with the smooth, raw soupy for a few days and go back to puttting tiny chunks of raw in the smooth soup.

Ill also put small amounts of ground beef in the kibble and we'll see what happens. Its hard to know who is actually eating it but if it starts getting eaten, Ill make some more egg/cream mixture with ground meat in it and Im sure those that are eating it will surface.

I may just have to settle with some kibble/some raw with this bunch. Ill settle for anything better than 100% kibble fed.

[Heather]

Hey, he ate the head. That's the choice part. He's actually eating for nutritional value. That's awesome!!! How long are you letting him keep his mousy? It won't go bad as fast as the other raw meat. My guys eat their rats in pieces....the head and the tail go first. Lady "B" Itchy likes her rat tails (ferret dental floss ) She then eats the head. I know that she does go back, but that rat changes place more times than if he was self-propelled. Each ferret takes him someplace, sometimes just to drag him around, other times to nibble on various select parts. Eventually, he gets eaten but he may have kicked around for 24 or 48 hrs. If I find him after that...then depending what's left he gets pitched. If it's just some fur then I usually leave him there and let them chew at their leisure. It's also good for bickering over
Let's just stick with the soupy for a couple of days. Let's see if we can convince them to eat it, without anything else to distract (keep the kibbles, you're still feeding that right?!) See if you can convince them to try it. Is the soupy served in such a manner that you can spoon feed a meal to each of them? See who eats, and who balks at it. It will give us a better idea as to who is eating and who is steadfastly refusing to touch it. I think if we can figure this out we may just be able to devise a game plan.
I realize that you're getting frustrated, and I truly understand, but you're dealing with 7 furries, each with their own timetable. I honestly think that you will eventually win this game but it's going to have to be done slowly. And you know what, I entirely agree with you anything that you succeed in getting them to eat is better than kibbles. So, we will get this you'll see
I will check in on you later.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

I had taken the mouse out but its still in the box. Ill put it back in for another day. Boudreaux was up there looking for it....LOL Anytime I make new soupies, there are always a couple who have to show their butt and not eat it at first. Bubba and Buster were the ones. The good news is, I put the leftover soupies in the pen and someone ate all of it. The middle was a cube that was raw meat (chicken) ground up with some broth so they are eating raw if it is totally ground up into smooth soup.....hmm, this may be something. (I make large batches of soup, added eggs and the shell to this one, and freeze them in ice cube trays. I made a tray with just raw chicken separate from the cooked chicken cubes) Ill add two raw cubes tonight. They all eat together at the bowl except Boudreaux who has to have a separate bowl, but if its something I need to spoon feed, Ill spread a towel out in the middle of the living room floor and fetch them one at a time. buster and bubba should be back eating with everyone by tomorrow morning. Ill be out of town tues and wed so Im going to stick with soup and kibble since hubby will be watching them. Ill be back wed night and if they are all eating the raw cubes mixed with the regular in the soupies, I may try putting teency cut up chicken back in. I am a little frustrated, but Im not quitting!!!! I have noticed the poo is not as seedy as it used to be. I know this is good for them and with such an age span with well established ferrets, I knew I was in for a fight....ha ha ha

[Heather]

What you describe is rather what I start my guys on. I basically use egg (you use soupy) and add ground up raw. I can make it as liquid or as thick as I choose or as needed. I also use this mix as a base for my duk soup for when they're ill. At first I make it as smooth as possible. As I've mentioned texture is the biggest problem we have to deal with. I don't think it's as much taste, though it does come into play some. Once they start eating it, then you thicken it up. As you thicken it up you can then try adding larger chunks. At first the chunks will be no larger than your fingernail, not much bigger than the ground that you will be feeding at the beginning. If you're going to be away for a couple of days, make whatever is easiest and safest for your furbabies. I will check with you tomorrow.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Woo hoo, we had a great dinner. I took out a few slices of the freeze dried beef rib and sliced it in real thin pieces and Bubba is eating this now by himself. He is a beef man!!!! ha ha I gave them the new batch of soupies....lots of cooked chicken, egg and shell, pingfords pooridge and a little nupro blended up thick and smooth like they like it. Then I sliced raw chicken breast in tiny chunks.....get this, Boudreaux, Sully, Chuckie and Max were eating the chunks....almost none left. I put the rest of the chunks and slices of beef on a plate in the pen next to a eating box/den. So my holdouts today were Buster and Killa but Buster was staring everyone down. I think giving them a day off and the smooth soup back helped.