Kiwi's Diet and Progress

[pear2apple]

Kiwi is here! Pics and such will be posted soon!

In the meantime I've been trying to decide when to start switching her to raw. I've had her with me 3 days now. This is her first night in my apartment though. At the Humane Society they were giving her cat food. She was switched over to NutriPhase ferret food (Petsmart brand) July 5th weekend. I brought that food with me when I heard she was on cat food, it was mine leftover from before I bought Evo. Now she is eating a mix of the NutriPhase, Evo Red Meat Small bites, and Evo Ferret.

I'd love to get her started on raw or at least a soupie/baby food in a week. I have already tried giving her some chicken baby food. She was not a fan. She sniffed it and ran away. I scruffed her and snuck some in, she didn't seem to mind that, but won't try it on her own. She sniffs Apple's food but won't try that either. I have a feeling she will be a bit tougher to change then Apple. But I want her on the same diet, the NV Raw Frozen.

Mustelidmusk I will need your help switching Kiwi! We can post here instead of PM. Also, I bought some Papaya and I want to give her that during the switch to make it easier. Did I get the right thing: Papaya and Enzymes Dietary Supplement, 100 tablets, serving size 4 tablets? Ingredients: Papaya (fruit) 20mg, Papain 40mg, Bromelain 4mg, alpha-Amylase 2mg. "tablets must be chewed" This doesn't sound right, I got it at Walgreens, I can take it back. Its the only bottle I found with the other vitamins, it was only $3. My vision was super blurry at the time, so I could only read the large print.

Thanks!

[mustelidmusk]

I bet Apple is thrilled to have a sister - especially a little kiwi ! You're going to end up with an entire fruit salad one day (I love those names -extremely cute!) I can't wait to see the pictures!!!!

Since we'll be posting publicly this time (instead of email), I'll take a quick moment to fill other readers in onthe the papaya (and no, papaya is NOT and other ferret ) and taurine supplements.

Background - Papaya extract:
Apple was getting some pretty nasty poops on raw chicken - they were rather green, which is bile in the stool from food going through his system way too fast. End result: poor absorption of nutrients. Papaya, papain(papaya extract), bromelain (from pineapple), etc are enzymes that help break down the protiens thus assisting with absorption of nurients when food is moving too fast throh the system.

Background- taurine supplements:
Taurine is believed to be essential for ferret health. Cats that suffer from heart disease (and death) on insufficient taurine levels. Taurine is very sensitive. It breaks down faster in groun meats and in storage (freezer). You can find references on the web demonstrating that cats fed rabbit-only ground diets start dropping dead from taurine defficiencies after a couple of years even though they look beautiful. Sor, for people who feed ground raw and especially those who feed a lot of the rabbit, I recommend the addition of lamb meat, beef heart, and taurine supplements. It's also the reason I recommend dark chicken meat over white meat - more taurine.

Anyway, I gotta run right now. I will post more later so we can get Kiwi started on her switch. How old is Kiwi??? Does she have any known health issues??? How well is she handing her new home, new food, new brother, etc.?

This info will help us gauge how much stress we may be willing to cause her (rate of switch), and well as how long we may have her in a transition phase where the mix of foods may be less than ideal. I don't like to deprive youngers, oldsters, high stres animals, etc. of nutritional needs during the switch.

-jennifer

[pear2apple]

I hope this means the Papaya I bought is correct, I'd like to give some to Apple as well because he has some stress with Kiwi around. All these changes!! He is also living in a brand new cage, alone until I think Kiwi and Apple are comfortable sharing a cage. But he has lots of bedding in there (that I made rather haphazardly) so its not like he shouldn't be comfortable.

No idea how old Kiwi is. I thought she looked young when I first saw her, but she's definitely older than a kit. Her body is much longer, but she's so thin its hard for me to tell. I'm not used to the skinny ones! She's not well potty trained, and she doesn't bite. I want to take her to the vet for a checkup next week. She needs a rabies shot, I forgot to mention that to the Humane Society, though they did give her the distemper. Her poops look fine, a little moist but not diarrhea or runny. No yellows or greens. I sort of expect some greens because of stress of the move, but none so far. I don't know any of her history because the Humane Society lost her folder of info! So no clue if she does have health issues. I should be good to go to the vet next week, maybe Thursday or Friday.

From what I've been told, she is playing well with Apple. They are enjoying each other, it seems the previous owners were wrong about Apple not enjoying another ferret's company!

She is eating the Evo fine, even seeks it out in the new cage. But she won't eat from my hand. She does like Ferrevite, once I gave her a small lick to make it easiest to cut her nails, now she is hooked! Just the way I like it so its easy as cake to groom her!

When I post photos, maybe you can help decide how old she is? I hope to post tonight!

[pear2apple]

I just ordered a free sample of Prozyme, I can't remember where I read about this, but its a probiotic. It just came today. Here's a break down and you can tell me if this is good to use for Apple and Kiwi, and how much I should use per 1 medallion of NV. (He doesn't always eat a full medallion, sometimes just half, but its an easy way to measure.)

It is in palatable powder form, the enzymes are entirely from plants. It should not be used with hot foods (why?). Double the dosage in older pets. Active Ingredients: Lactose, Dried Aspergillus oryzae and Aspergillus niger fermentation products, dried bromelain derived from Ananas comosus. Each gram of Prozyme provides the enzyme activity of Alpha-Amylase (2000 SKBU), Lipase (200 LU), Cellulase (50 CCHU), and Protease (8GDU).

Said to help with skin problems, dry or scaly coar, digestive disorders, immune disorders, weight problems, bloating, hairballs, coprophagia, joint difficulties, excessive shedding, allergies, lethargy, flatulence, and wound healing. This is for cats, dogs, rabbits, horses, birds, ferrets, and other exotics. Results 1-8 weeks after consistent use (every meal).

Info: www.prozymeproducts.com I got the free sample, it was $6 shipping.

Ok or not?

[mustelidmusk]

Hi,

Kiwi sounds very cute and slinky!!!! One of my first ferrets was the slinky type, and boy was he capable of getting into EVERYTHING!!!


We'll talk about the pro-biotics first...
Pro-zyme is a decent brand. Now please be aware that many people (even some very ferret-knowlegeable vets) will tell you that the pro-biotics will go right through your ferret and do no good because the ferret's digestive system is too fast. But I've also had ferret vets recommend them, and some of the breeders I know swear by them. They sdefinitely seemed to help my ferrets transition a bit easier. But here is the key...I fed my ferrets the pro-bio's with a small amoint of oil in between meals. The idea here is that the "empty" stomach allows the probios to hang out in the gut and imbed in the stomach lining rather than being carried through the system.
There is one pro-bio that I prefer called Vet-zimes V2 - it's really hard to find even on the net, so I'm starting to think you may have to get it through a vet, which is how I got mine. But, the pro-zyme is a good brand as well.
I used the bottle I got, by then, and poop issues had long since disappeared. I recommend giving the pro-bios twice a day between meals. I used aprox. 1/8 tsp. with some baby food or some salmon oil (or flax seed oil, olive oil, etc.) If you're unlucky and have to work for a living like most of us , the between meals can be tough. Essentially, I could do that on the weekend, but the weekdays were impossible to control. During the week, I gave the probios as soon as I woke up,got ready for work, and then fed the brats just before going out the door. When I got home, I fed the brats first thing, and then gave pro-bios before going to bed.


Now for the enzymes...
Yes, the enzymes you bought will work fine. You'll need to crush the tablets into a fine powder. The key to using the enzymes (to increase protien digestibility) is to allow the enzymes to work on the meat before it is consumed....When you take the meat out of the fridge the night before you intend to feed it to your kids, Sprinkle a big pinch over the meat while it's still frozen. Allow the meat to thaw over night in the fridge. In the morning, take the meat out of the fridge first thing in the morning. mix the powder into the meat and allow the meat to sit for about 20 minutes or so.

You may want to start adding the papaya extract in smaller amounts first to make sure your kids won't simply reject the food.

As far as switching to raw with Kiwi is concerned, I'd probably feed them in separate cages until they're comfortable with eachother and Kiwi is eating raw pretty well on her own. She doesn't have to be fully transitioned, but like you said, there's lots of change going on!

You should be able to start working with Kiwi on raw & soup introduction right away as long as you keep portions offered very small and provide access to kibble as well. Once you feel she's settled in (probably in a week or two - depends on the fert), you can let he get a little hungry before offering the raw food.

Since you want Kiwi eating the same thing as Apple, I'd take about a half tablepoon of Apple's food and about twice as much re-soaked kibble, add enough water to make it into a thick soup, but not sticky like peanut butter. I'd offer it on your finger first - a quick-but-gentle scruff probably won't bother Kiwi if you need it since she's a sweetie. If she likes it. hold her and offer some more by hand. Then you can set her down and put about a teaspoon of soup on a small open dish and leave her in her cage with it. If she hasn't eaten the soup in about an hour, toss, it. You can start this tomorrow, as long as you don't take her kibble away.

As always, let me know how it goes!!!
-jennifer



Since she seems to be on the thin side, and her health history is unknown, a little bit of heavy cream and/or egg yolk in her soup would not be a bad thing. Heavy cream is

[pear2apple]

This is awesome. I mixed up some baby food and the NV raw just to see, then put a bit of Ferrevite on it and Kiwi started licking it up right away. She licked up all of the Ferrevite, and some of the raw/baby food/water mix. When the Ferrevite was gone though, she was done. But its still exciting to see her keep licking it when I really didn't try that hard. Maybe she won't be such a tough switch after all!

I've also heard trying kitten replacer milk to help fatten her up? Where would I find that, a pet store? Or would you suggest heavy cream, which btw, I've never had either, so how do I buy that and what kind is best?

[mustelidmusk]

YAY!!! That is awesome!!!!!!!!!!! GO KIWI!!!!!

Next ime, mix the ferretone in the soup - not lots, but she'll be able to smell it and she might just start eating the soup! You may need 1 or 2 drops on top of the soup to get her going.

If you're looking yo add weight....
---------------------------------------------
"heavy cream" is best.
heavy whipping cream is next bet
whipping cream also works.
Heavy cream has the least amount of lactose. Ferrets tend to be lactose intolerant, but the heavy cream has the least mount of lactose and this highest fat content. Most ferret oners that are preparing for shows will supplement their ferets a couple times each week with a bit of heavy cream to add a little weight. Plus, the increased fat content makes the coat nice and soft.

I'd feed about 1/4 to 1/2 tablespon mixed in the soup once a day. But I'd start out with the smaller amount to see if Kiwi gets the runs from it.

Cream will be the small milk-like cartons next to the milk in the grocery store.

If youre looking for nutrient content ....
---------------------------------------------------
KMR (Kitten Milk Replacer) will work. It has fats in it as well. It can be purchased at places like Petco, PetSmart, etc I've even seen it in Walmart. KMR is a good brand. We used it for raising many orphaned baby animals at the wildlife rehab. facility. It's fotified with lot of nutrients, It has oils in it, such as soy.

KMR comes in either powder or liquid form. Keep it in the refrigerator, and I think you're supposed to toss any unused liquid after 72 hours. Keep the powder refrigerated of in the freezer as well.

Some people don't like dairy because dairy has some sugars in it. Some people don't like soy because it's plant-based and contains plant hormones. As a temporary measure, I don't think there's any risk with either since either one will be a supplement.

I would feed it as I described for the cream.

Pick one of the two options above. you can also split an egg yolk between Apple and Kiwi twice a week

The cream/KMR and/or yolk can be mixed into the soup.

Have fun with your babies!
-jennifer

[pear2apple]

Well everyone, Kiwi's diet change has been put on hold while I take care of Apple. I do not want Apple trying to eat the raw again just yet, so I am not serving it to either of them.

Kiwi is eating the Evo and loving it, she also loves N-Bones and Foamy Fries. She devoured the N-Bone in a matter of minutes when I gave her one. I think she will do well on a natural diet, especially if I start buying more raw meats for them.

Her coat is already super soft, a little short still, but I think its really improving and once she has a shed, it will be great!

[mustelidmusk]

No surprises that Kiwi is "on hold" - you've had enough excitement going oe (a little too much excitement!)

I saw your list of products, some were included in the list I'm checking into.

The primal raw diet has way too much veggie. I tried the duck once, and the medallions are actually greenish. - stick with the NV.

I just picked up some Stella & Chewies - freeze-dried lamb and also a package of th feeze-dried beef. I'll let you know what I think. Looks pretty good from what I cansee through the package - haven't opened them up yet.

This does have chicken egg, but you may have to try some things to see how it goes.

In the mean time, hugs and kisses to Apple and Kiwi
-jennifer

[pear2apple]

Thanks for checking into foods for me. I really appreciate it! And also happy to know I was on the right track! yay

Kisses right back to your fuzzies!

[mustelidmusk]

Hi Pear,
I want to make sure you read the post on taurine defiency in the medical/health section since, like me, you're feeding gound raw diet with lots of rabbit.

We talked about taurine, but I want to make ure you undertand the full importance of including this in your ferrets' diets.

-jennifer

[pear2apple]

Jul 25, 2008 8:54:11 GMT -5 mustelidmusk said:

Hi Pear,
I want to make sure you read the post on taurine defiency in the medical/health section since, like me, you're feeding gound raw diet with lots of rabbit.

We talked about taurine, but I want to make ure you undertand the full importance of including this in your ferrets' diets.

-jennifer

Yes and no. Its not in the rabbit, but it is in the lamb and the Evo Red Meat bites. I haven't found it in capsule form yet. I think I need to hit up GNC or something, I am still looking for it. Exactly how much should they be getting a day (%) and what does it really do?

[mustelidmusk]

I'l get to the taurine questions either today or tomorrow. I'm not too terribly concerned about the taurine just yet since nones contain taurine! So I know your kidsare getting a boosted with the n-bones right now.

Also remeber that there are no known requiremens for taurine for ferrets, so some of this gets pretty "fuzzy"

-jennifer

[mustelidmusk]

"nones" in the previous post is supposed to be n-bones!!!
Oh the joys of a wireless keyboard!!!

[pear2apple]

I can't find the thread on Taurine Definciency in the medical section. Could someone send me the link?

I'm going to a vitamin/herb store this week, hopefully they will have it there and I can finally buy some! I've been searching for awhile!!