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Post by pear2apple on Oct 29, 2008 7:16:57 GMT -5
Hi guys, I am putting together a ferret food chart, a total update from what is now available. Mostly it will be ferret and cat kibbles in a comparison-like format, like www.ferretuniverse.com/care/food.asp but much more information. Such as canned foods (Evo, NV, Evangers), commercial freeze-dried (Stella & Chewys, Ziwipeak), treats, and supplements. I plan on including a section for raw/rmb/whole prey, but I don't know anything about the nutrition information for any of that. I am also including commercial raw and freeze-dried raw, I think I can get a good amount of that information from the Where to Buy section on here. Giuli, or the other mentors, if you have that info, I would really appreciate you passing it along to me. You can post it here, or PM me with it, whichever you find easier. No rush, as I am still collecting information for the kibbles. I am also including treats and supplements in my chart. I'm still deciding what all to include, but I want to include a short summary about the dietary requirements for a ferret. A little part about preservatives (spiritualtramp is helping me there), and then a summary of the type of supplements your ferret might need. And then going the natural route for things: Vaseline vs Lax vs Olive Oil...that type thing. These little bits of info will just be small paragraphs/boxes to include next to my food chart, not necessarily in it. If you have any other ideas for vs products, let me know. I'm pretty much designing the food chart because we need an updated one, but also because it will look great in my portfolio. I plan on making some career changes, so I really need to bulk it up with new information and new formats. This is a great project for me! Also, I'd like photos of your ferrets eating raw/rmb/whole prey. Preferably one ferret (or 2 fighting over a piece), on a very uncluttered background, with the raw or whatever very easily seen as to what it is. This may only be for my printed version of the food chart, unless I can find room for it on the pdf version I am making for everyone else. Or even a photo of them stashing their food. That might work too. Thanks everyone! I will be working on this project at least a few weeks, if not a month or 2. Just depends on my other freelance projects (that I actually get paid for) and the rest of my schedule. If you have any questions or want to make sure I am including a certain product, please post here or PM me and I will get back to you! Post your photos and any information (preferably with a credible resource) here for me, or PM me! Thanks for your help!
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Post by pear2apple on Oct 29, 2008 7:18:33 GMT -5
Possibily even a tiny section about Slippery Elm, Papaya, etc...
And then in my quick summary about dietary requirements, I want to include that rice/corn/grains contribute to diseases.... Anyone have sources for that?
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Post by Forum Administrator on Oct 29, 2008 14:43:37 GMT -5
Well here is the thing, you cant really compare ONE raw/whole prey food to a kibble because unlike with a kibble diet, a natural diet is made up with many components. I dont really know what would be the best way to go about it. The main things that natural and kibble diets differ in is: Moisture Carb Content Protein Natural diets are SIGNIFICANTLY higher in moisture then kibbles. About 70-80%, whereas kibble is around 10-12%. The protein in natural diets is also usually about 20% higher (with the exception of natural gold and evO), but on a side note 99.9% of the protein in natural diets is usable animal protein, while in kibbles its really anyone's guess, it could be 90% useable protein or less (usually its safe to say its never over 95% animal protein). So even if a kibble has the same protein value of say, a mouse, its really NOT the exact same as feeding your ferret a mouse. This is why when put on some natural food (even if still being fed kibble) ferrets tend to "bulk up" and their nails grow faster----because they are getting more USEABLE protein----from the natural food. The carb content also varys greatly. Natural diets have about a 2-5% (at MOST) carb content. Those carbs (in a whole prey diet) come from the stomach content of the prey), in a raw and whole prey diet it comes from the muscle glucose in the muscles of the meat. Something to note is that some of that is complex carbs (which go in and out of the ferret pretty much unchanged). The carb content of the mouse depends on how much of the food in its belly has been digested. If the mouse hasnt eaten in a while, then it suddenly finds a meal, eats, and then 1 minute later the ferret eats it, then we know that the carb content is COMPLEX. Never in its wildest travels would a polecat encounter the SIMPLE carbohydrates we see in kibble. The heavy cooking process partially digests these carbs, thus allowing them to enter a ferret's blood stream. So just like with the protein, just because a kibble is "low carb" doesnt mean its the same as natural feeding. If ALL those carbs are simple carbs whereas only HALF of the 4% carb content of the mouse is simple carbs, I'd say thats a pretty significant difference. The last thing I'd like to mention is that you'll need to compare all kibbles on a DRY MATTER basis. You can't compare moisture rich raw and whole prey, to moisture devoid kibbles because it would be like comparing apples to.....kiwi's . The moisture throws the percentages off. When you convert everything down to dry matter, you can make a fair comparison. Apples to Apples. I DO have pictures though. I will post them this evening for you and let you choose. I hope I havent confused you, If you have any questions, please dont hesitate to ask.
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Post by pear2apple on Oct 29, 2008 20:29:44 GMT -5
OK, yeah, I will def need a SHORT summary of that, much more dumbed down as well! No one will understand that. And by short, I mean summarize in like 5-6 sentences.
I'm not really "comparing" kibble to raw so much as actually putting the information on a food chart, because right now, that info just isn't available! Moisture content, not sure if it really matters with dry kibbles. For canned and raw, I think I will include it. Also, raw/rmb/whole prey will be getting its own section on my chart. Not being mixed in with the kibble as if they are "equal" diets.
Obviously protein in whole prey is significantly different than a kibble because the only ingredient is the prey! So that alone goes to show that the 40% or whatever protein is 98% animal (and maybe like 2% carb). That to me is just obvious, however if you want to EASILY explain that, I would love to include it. But it has to be VERY simple and broken down!
Amy sent me a Nutritional Analysis of Whole Prey, I still need to read it over, but perhaps there is some good info in there and an easy breakdown too.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Oct 29, 2008 23:51:36 GMT -5
I will be sure to look this over and try and whip something up for you. I'll get it to you as soon as I can, Chris. I'll post it here in this thread.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Nov 3, 2008 9:23:07 GMT -5
A side note Chris that I forgot to mention earlier: moisture content IS important info to include, because carnivores naturally have very low thirst drives, as in a natural state they'd get much of their water intake from their foods. Kibble-feeding thusly can contribute to chronic dehydration, which adds to a laundry list of problems including kidney issues (because as we all know, water flushes the systems of toxins!)
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Post by pear2apple on Nov 3, 2008 10:24:22 GMT -5
Well so far I am grabbing the moisture content of every food that provides that info. And I am typically heading directly to the brand site, and not just randomly searching online.
Perhaps I should include a box about the importance of moisture content with kibbles and dehydration as a factor? And then obviously moisture is higher in raw and canned foods...a short comparison perhaps?
This is becoming so complicated! LOL But I am ready for the challenge!
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Post by spiritualtramp on Nov 3, 2008 11:33:25 GMT -5
Yes I would include a brief background info box about the importance of hydration in a ferret's diet! I'm so happy that you're doing this Chris! It's going to be so helpful, I just know it.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Nov 4, 2008 22:46:21 GMT -5
Yup, definitly make a note on moisture. ALSO some vitamins are water soluable, so when moisture is removed and things are cooked, those nutrients are degraded and then must be added back artificially
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Post by jojodancer on Nov 6, 2008 9:58:23 GMT -5
I'm glad someone is updating a food chart. I know I have a personal one that I use, it's continually being updated when I hear of new foods. But then I rank the foods on my own beliefs (ie: having corn gets negative marks in my book)
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Post by pear2apple on Nov 6, 2008 13:33:22 GMT -5
I'm glad someone is updating a food chart. I know I have a personal one that I use, it's continually being updated when I hear of new foods. But then I rank the foods on my own beliefs (ie: having corn gets negative marks in my book) Thanks! And having corn gets negative marks in EVERYONES book!!
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Post by spiritualtramp on Nov 6, 2008 14:38:24 GMT -5
Chris, have you checked out Bev's Vitamin and Mineral article? It's on FV and will be hugely useful in explaining where vitamins come into play, and how water soluable vitamins are different than fat soluable!!
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Post by pear2apple on Nov 6, 2008 19:54:03 GMT -5
Thanks Erinn, that is a good list and will be good info to mention.
I have a favor to ask of someone, since I am making a list of the good foods and the bad foods, but its only kibbles, I was thinking I should give a short list of maybe 15 or so foods that are BAD people foods to feed ferrets. Like ice cream, sugar, alcohol, raisins, candy, etc. Things that people don't usually think about because "its just a little bit".
I've almost got all the kibble and canned info together and now its just raw and whole prey info that I need to collect. So if someone could come up with that list for me, I'd really appreciate it. If you could also include about 5 sentences (or less) to explain why that "little bit" is so awful, that would be awesome!
You could post the list and explanation right here in this thread. If I could have a list before the end of December, that would be perfect!
Thanks guys!!
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Post by jojodancer on Nov 7, 2008 11:38:09 GMT -5
I'm confused - do you want a list of bad people food (like raisins) or do you want a list of raw and whole prey foods. For kitten kibble, did you include Blue Wilderness. It ranks the highest on my kitten kibble list, and it's not widley known. Horizon Legacy also ranks high on my list, along with EVO, Innova, Orijen, and Timberwolf. For raw foods (commercial): Stella and Chewy's, ZiwiPeak, AFS, NV, and Wysong-1 For bad people food: raisins! known to cause renal failure and grape toxicity in dogs, it is now a no-no for all pets including ferrets and cats. (you can link to the ASPCA page here, but I think there are better links elsewhere, I jsut cna't find them: www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_apcc_publicationsgrapes)
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Post by pear2apple on Nov 7, 2008 14:50:16 GMT -5
I'm confused - do you want a list of bad people food (like raisins) or do you want a list of raw and whole prey foods. I mean bad people food (like raisins). For kitten kibble, did you include Blue Wilderness. It ranks the highest on my kitten kibble list, and it's not widley known. Horizon Legacy also ranks high on my list, along with EVO, Innova, Orijen, and Timberwolf. For raw foods (commercial): Stella and Chewy's, ZiwiPeak, AFS, NV, and Wysong-1. Thanks, I don't have Blue Wildern, Horizen, Orijen, or Timberwolf. Are those the brand names? I haven't really heard of those before. And I forgot abotu AFS, thanks for the reminder! Thanks for the info about raisins, I didn't really know more than because of a possible blockage. Thats another thing, if you know of any foods that aren't too mainstream, please post here to make sure I have them on my list of kibble or commercial raw. I am including a cat food section, so if theres a few you think MUST be on the list, let me know! Also, any dog kibbles, besides Evo, that are safe? Let me know that too! I have started my vitamin section. I may send it to crazylady to double check that I have the key info from her vitamin/mineral article.
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