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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 25, 2008 8:47:33 GMT -5
I separated this out into a new thread so it's easier for more people to find... Taurine is essential for a healthy heart, and it's VERY FRAGILE!!! It deteriorates under any processing - even freezing. The longer food is frozen, the more taurine deteriorates. Ground meats lose even more taurine. Beef heart (and heart meat in general ) are good sources of taurine. DARK chicken/poultry meats contain more taurine than light meat such as chicken breast. Rabbit meat is low in taurine. Below is a quote from the following web page: (EVERYONE feedng nonfortified foods should read this) www.felineinstincts.com/orderNow/Taurinedeficiencyinrabbit.html"Although it appeared that the raw rabbit diet was significantly beneficial for the stool quality and appearance of health in the cats, the sudden and rapidly fatal illness of one of the cats that were fed the raw rabbit diet for 10 months was chilling and unexpected. The affected cat was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy due to a severe Taurine deficiency. Moreover, 70% of the remaining raw rabbit diet fed cats, which appeared outwardly healthy, also had heart muscle changes compatible with Taurine deficiency and could have developed heart failure if continued on our raw rabbit diet. For the remaining three months of the study, the raw rabbit diet was supplemented with Taurine and Taurine levels returned to normal. " -jennifer |
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Post by tss on Jul 25, 2008 9:04:31 GMT -5
I read that before, rabbit does have enough Taurine for ferrets. Just not enough to make up a large part of a cats diet. The food I feed my ferrets normally is frozen but the main thing I do is give them fresh meats, like beef, goat or deer a day or two after they are killed so the meat is fresh and full of taurine.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Jul 25, 2008 15:50:53 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up, Jennifer  I'd also like to point out that if someone wants to "supplement taurine" the best way (IMO) to do this is to simply include some FRESH (not frozen  ) beef or chicken heart each day (like a small chunk). Im not really a fan of taurine supplements and other supplements. I feel the best way for an animal to make use of taurine (and other nutrients) is to have them supplied in the diet via natural food sources. |
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Post by josiesmom on Jul 25, 2008 16:18:39 GMT -5
Those cats were ONLY fed raw rabbit? Their opening statement of " After much consideration we decided on a diet of only Rabbit...." how much was "much" and just what were they considering? Certainly not how to offer a proper natural raw diet!
None of us advocates a SOLE source of meat - we all insist upon a diversity of animal meats.
Also the rabbit was ground and frozen - so whatever taurine the cats would have derived from being able to eat the entire rabbit, with organs, in a natural RAW form were obliterated by the grinding and freezing!
They actually seemed surprised that the cats could not survive on just one food source for ten months!
Geesh! And they all had letters after their names!
Cheers,
Kim
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Post by quill on Jul 25, 2008 18:19:24 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up, Jennifer I'd also like to point out that if someone wants to "supplement taurine" the best way (IMO) to do this is to simply include some FRESH (not frozen ) beef or chicken heart each day (like a small chunk). Im not really a fan of taurine supplements and other supplements. I feel the best way for an animal to make use of taurine (and other nutrients) is to have them supplied in the diet via natural food sources. So we should feed a portion of FRESH food every day? |
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Post by Forum Administrator on Jul 25, 2008 20:39:46 GMT -5
Honestly, Trina it wouldnt hurt to do so I keep some chicken hearts in my fridge. Each ferret gets a heart 1x per day as a snack |
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Post by buzzonesbirdie on Jul 25, 2008 21:08:07 GMT -5
i try to feed fresh chicken at least 4 times a week since their whole prey is frozen.
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Post by suds on Jul 26, 2008 9:56:33 GMT -5
i try to feed fresh chicken at least 4 times a week since their whole prey is frozen. ok I just thought I would memtion this about "fresh chickens " I live in south Pa on the delaware and newjesry borders. I am a HVAC tech a few times a month I get calls from certain manufactures to go on jobs to act as tech rep to train or assist plant maintenecs workers on Equipment . I been on lots of farms ,small and big most all are chicken farms and they all use flash freezing in there proccessing .After they dispatch them , defeather ,and dress them they all get flashed freezed. and yet they call them "fresh" I have worked on this equipment on all sized farms , I asked once why they use them other for delivery and storage and I was told its also for certain parrasites . I am not sure how much nutritien is lost through this kind of Freezzing I just know most chickens and meats you get from Butchers and supermarkets are frozen when they arrive to the store and the stores then defrost them before they are put on the display sections... IMO the only way to get realy fresh chicken is if you buy a live chick and dispatch them yourself. just thought I would throw my 2 cents in there . |
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Post by quill on Jul 26, 2008 10:00:14 GMT -5
Honestly, Trina it wouldnt hurt to do so I keep some chicken hearts in my fridge. Each ferret gets a heart 1x per day as a snack That's cool...my ferts love hearts. I'll do the same. Thanks! |
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Post by tss on Jul 27, 2008 17:55:25 GMT -5
nearly ALL meat from the store has been frozen. You ONLY way to know if it's been frozen is to get it yourself from a farm or slaughter house.. The goat I feed comes from goats I butcher so I know if it's been frozen, when I go to the slaughter house I know it hasn't been frozen because it's still in the gut barrel.. Get it soon enough and it's still beating! I am a "processer" at a rabbitry so I know that the rabbit hearts haven't been frozen, and I'll be a processer at a farm helping butcher chickens and a couple steers.. I know that those won't be frozen. Otherwise the meat will have likely been frozen, theres no way of stopping that. "fresh" doesn't mean anything.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 27, 2008 19:07:34 GMT -5
I agree with everything you guys have brought up - we need to emphasize the importance of providing quality meats, variety, and nutrient source! All these things are impotant.
As Maria pointed out, strore meats are previously frozen even if you buy the meat unfrozen. (What's the "best when ued by:" date on the fodd you're buying??? does your suppliermover enough poduct to provide a fresh supply???)
As Kim pointed out, variety is key to s successful raw diet
As Giuli mentioned, natural meat sources such as beef heart/heart meat and lamb, dark poutry meats are better sources than supplements.
But if you're feeding frozen ground raw as I do, I have the human supplemnt available for those weeks when I just can't get to the store to get the real thing (beef heart, etc)
We really do not know what ferret taurine requirements may be. We assume the need is similar cat dietary requirements. If we understand some of the properties of the foods we choose for our ferrets, we can pair our diffent meats in a complementary fashsion....for example, I always recommend that people who feed a lot of rabbit also provide a lot of lamb and heart.
While this may not be as critical for live prey feeders, it will be something those who feed ground raw diet will want to consider.
-jennifer
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Post by quill on Jul 27, 2008 20:10:27 GMT -5
Does the 'fresh' from the store provide enough? I don't have a source of farm fresh meat. Should I supply supplements, too?
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Post by tss on Jul 27, 2008 22:09:31 GMT -5
Meat from the store probably does provide enough, there hasn't been an epidimic of raw fed cats or ferret dying due to frozen meats. I was just saying the only way to get it completely "intact" was to feed the really fresh stuff. Even if you feed a good amount of pre-frozen heart all the taurine in it should be enough. I think the main issue with the cat story is that the food was overly processed, it was ground and frozen. Any carnivore could probably live off of whole rabbits alone, just not processed. Not that I'd feed a diet like that, I was only saying.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 27, 2008 22:19:22 GMT -5
If you're feeding RMB & whole prey along with heart meats organ meats, DARK chicken meat, you'll be fine. It you're like me and you feed freeze-dried and frozen commercial diets with RMB - but your grocery store doesnt carry hearts except for once in a while - plus your life is so hectic that you don't get to the butcher's store, then you may want to consider keeping a bottle of taurine supplements in the house. Sure, natural taurine supplements in the form of heart meat, dark chiken meat, etc. is best, but the stuff in a capsule is better than nothing if you use it occassionally (like when you life get's outta control  I don't want to scare people here. It's just very good to know where the weakneses are in the various feeding options. And we do have one little fert in our program, Apple, who seems to have a significant allergy to chicken, so he won't be getting the dark chicken meat. We are working on his diet to help him get the variety and nutrition he needs (rabbit, lamb, mice, organ meats, etc.) . Since I'm helping Appple's mom understand his needs, I figured it's good information for all ferret ownersto have since it will help people decide which feeding options might best work for them. as aways, thank you for asking! -jennifer |
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Post by quill on Jul 28, 2008 8:08:27 GMT -5
Thanks! My kids eat a variety and I hardly ever offer ground now that they are switched so I won't be paranoid about it!!  |
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