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Post by Heather on Oct 6, 2010 22:06:01 GMT -5
As hard as it sounds, for an IBD stool, that's not bad. I agree it could be better but his body isn't totally rejecting the protein source. He's having problems digesting the fat. He ate the mouse, then? It appears to be some skin and hair from a mouse in that sample. I find that my guys have a more mucousy stool with mice, but don't seem to necessarily suffer any ill effects. ciao
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Post by katt on Oct 6, 2010 23:32:26 GMT -5
Well he had mainly pork, I gave him a mouse before bedtime (my bedtime) and tat poop was late afternoon/early evening the next day. the mouse was gone in the morning and I gave him more pork so that poop was mainly pork, but possibly part mouse... I don't know in other words. haha The vet just called a bit ago. She said that I can taper off his other meds (Famotidine, Petptobismol, and carafate) to 2x a day, then once a day, then every other day, and see how he does. And that if he gets worse again, to move back up, stabilize him, then try to decrease again. Before she gives Pred, she wants to have blood work to check on everything else. she says that pred changes the body chemistry so it is important to check things Before giving him the pred...that costs about $125 so we are going to hold off for now. So for now, the plan is to wean off of the other meds, and then work with his diet... I added another breeding group to my mice, so hopefully when they get up and running he can have more whole prey... Oh, and she also said that pumpkin is a stool softener so that perhaps (since he has soft, liquidy stools) I should not give that to him?
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 6, 2010 23:45:23 GMT -5
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD". Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens. Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback? I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption. for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet. I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred). -jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 6, 2010 23:58:22 GMT -5
Only a very few kibble-fed ferrets have the kinds of stools that can be "swapped out" candy box without notice Seriously, a small bit of the brown-orange-ish liquid is not at all uncommon for a raw fed ferret. My kids get some seedy poops with that liquid here and there. Not all the time, but I do see it sometimes. I watch to see if it goes away. Ferts get "stress poops". I would not look at that poop picture and immediately think "IBD". Anyway, I would add a little more fiber (pumpkin) - not a whole lot more....just increase it by a little bit for a few days to see what happens. Did you get in touch with the vet? Any feedback? I hesitate to remove all poultry since it's the most available form of bone for ferrets. If we can stabilize koda on this quality of stool with the turkey necks for bone and a handful of other different meats, that would be a good thing. We can look at some supplements (enzyme and pro-bios) that will help with absorption. for now, stick with the current plan until we hear from the vet. I'd like to see what happens with reduced poultry and pork/mice only once Koda is off the anti-biotics (and possibly on pred). -jennifer In my above post I added the vet update... With that in mind... Pumpkin? Yay nay? Probios? Where can I order them there are none in town except Marshall's...though there is a holistic store here I want to check out too as they have a pet section I am told...
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Post by Heather on Oct 7, 2010 13:42:51 GMT -5
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought ciao
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Post by katt on Oct 7, 2010 15:12:05 GMT -5
Sometimes this site is so frustrating....just lost my post...again I would stick with the pumpkin (just my thoughts on it). Pumpkin is one of those miracle veggies. It does indeed soften stools, but it also absorbs moisture when the need arises. I might consider adding less pumpkin when I was feeding prey and more when I'm feeding frankenprey, as the pumpkin is offering properties that are needed in the frankenprey. Just a thought ciao Ok, thanks Heather. I have been trying to offer at least one prey item a day because it makes a HUGE difference. With that in mind, should I still offer pumpkin those days, with his non-prey meals, or only give it on days that he does not get a whole prey?
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Post by sherrylynne on Oct 7, 2010 18:18:52 GMT -5
I'd be tempted to give a bit with the non-prey meals. It's quite likely the non-digestibles that are helping with the stool when he has the whole prey.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 7, 2010 23:12:21 GMT -5
Honestly, I prefer finely chopped white mushrooms that are cooked a (I chop them finley then nuke them until they hot all the way through. Since liquid seems to be a problem, mushroom would probably work better than pumpkin. Pumpkin is "the great equalizer" It can be used to soften hard stool or provide bulk for loose stool. but the bottom line is that pumpkin will always produce a softer/mushier stool with some liquid.You can try a pumpkin with some mushrooms mixed isn to transition over if you want to. Here is a good read on finding a good pro-bio. product: www.wholeapproach.com/newsletter/archives/2003/07_July.html(Not as easy as it seems ) Yes, if Koda does not have baseline blood work, he should be base-lined before getting pred. I figured had probably already had baseline work done. I missed your post the other day because I started my post before yours got out there The brats started raising hell upstairs, so I was rudely interrupted by their antics! -jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 12, 2010 3:35:35 GMT -5
Ok so Koda's poop today was, well bad all over again. I feel like we backslid a little. The last few days he has been caged more while I crammed madly for my BioChem test....that turned out to be next week! (yaaay!) Anyways, it was small and dark and slimy. Last 2 days he only got pork and turkey neck (ate very little turkey neck...I have to chop it to bits to even get his notice ). I gave him a live mouse (and more attention!) today, and his newest poop is much much better. I also gave him a little pepto last night (have not been giving meds the last 2-3 days) and just gave him a round of carafate and pepto. No famotidine. We will see what tomorrow brings. I am going to try to get to the oriental store today to get some pork kidney. When can I start trying out new meats? I want him to get his variety...
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 12, 2010 9:31:09 GMT -5
He is off the antibiotics. I would keep him on the porkfor at least another week to see what happens. A month on single source food is not enough to create an issue. In fact, you may want to try the rest of this week without the turkey to see what happens. You'll be relying on mouse only, and he'll not be eating bone for a week, but many ferrets go without bone for more than a week and or single source protein when they're switching.
Another thing you may want to try is slippery elm bark instead of the pepto and/or carafate when you're ready. It does coat the tummy like pepto. Anything that coats the tummy inhibits absorption. Some ferrets do better with the something very soothing about the slippery elm rather than the pepto.. There's something soothing /anti-inflammatory with the slippery elm for some ferts.
As far as carafate goes, it works differently that than the pepto/slippery elm bark. It works more like a band-aid that sticks to any ulcers forming a coating that protects the ulcers from stomach acids.
If the poops do not improve/stabilize by the end of the week after stopping the antibiotics, I'd be calling the vet. I can't remember if Koda had the blood draw for his baseline. If he has, you will probably have the results by then, and your vet may prescribe pred over the phone.
One or two more weeks (even one with NO turkey/bone) will not hurt Koda, and you may see improvement. If Koda has issues with all poultry, you may need to feed bone meal - at least short term - to figure out if the improvement/stabilization is associated with poultry. Yes, this is a major pain-in-the-butt! But once we figure out what's going on, things will become more routine.
-jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 12, 2010 11:58:03 GMT -5
He has not had baseline blood work done yet. I'm saving up, getting him health insurance, then doing that and a microchip at some point. I can do no turkey that is easier for me lol I hadn't given him his micies either the lastfew days his poop after the mouse last night was better- a lot better. A little green in it but nothing too bad mostly normal colored, nice and firm but a bit skinny...what does the green mean? Also I'd like to start the multivitamins soon. You gave me a bunch of links but which would you recommend? I was leaning towards Thorne Research bc my vet has heard of them at least...
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Post by Heather on Oct 12, 2010 12:24:13 GMT -5
Don't bother with the insurance...it's a scam if they will even take him. He has a pre existing problem...IBD. They won't cover anything. We've had this discussion on a number of lists, this one included if I remember correctly. It was decided that your money was better spent if you created an account that earned interest and put your money into that. I've heard of too many reports of promised pay off's and when people go to collect the company has some fine print BS that tells why they cannot cover the problem. My mother spent a fortune on insurance, they covered the odd medical bill, until the dog had to have dental work done. The claim was refused because she had a bishon and they are known to have dental issues (this is true) so it wasn't covered. After that any time there was a health issue, they made reference to the dental problem. They wouldn't cover a rash because it could be related to her deteriorating teeth. You get the picture It's just the way it works....put the money aside that you would pay in premiums and just use that to cover Koda's expenses. You will save yourself the heartache of lining an already rich company with your hard earned money . The green sometimes means that the food travelled a bit too fast. With an IBD fert that's standard issue It can also mean that he's having some tummy cramping (at least I know that's what it meant with Ghenghis). Think about cholic in babies I really can't help you with the whole multi thing (I just don't use them) Take a close look at the non-medical ingredients. These are the things that I find often cause issues. There are often some really disgusting fillers, that can cause issues...petrochemicals, soya (really bad for Koda), dairy products (I never could figure out the why for this one)....just read very carefully. You (because of your education) will be better equiped to understand what a lot of the multi additives are. ciao
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Post by katt on Oct 17, 2010 18:49:15 GMT -5
Sorry I have been slacking on updating my post. Mainly because I don't have anything good or bad to add. Right now I am pretty much saving up a little money to get Koda's blood drawn. He is going to need the Pred I think - his poops are pretty much right back to square one. I have still been feeding him just pork and mice. I want to try to get a hold of that slippery elm that you mentioned. There is a Natural Health store next to my work, I am sure I can find some there. Is it like a pill or a powder? I have started a poop log, but I haven't been super good about keeping up with it. it is hard because he seems to be doing most of his pooping at home right now, and so it gets covered in litter and I can't really see it very well. He pooped outside of his cage a few times though and it wasn't too great. Small, mucousy, dark colored poops! It is really frustrating. I'm copying this to the thread too so that everyone else can get the update. Thanks for checking in. I have been meaning to post but just didn't really have much to update on. *sigh*
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Post by Heather on Oct 17, 2010 19:01:21 GMT -5
Having nothing to report when things aren't going well is understandable. We have a tendency to push off in hopes that things will change for the better and we hope that by not putting things in print we won't discourage ourselves. Living on pred though not great, isn't that bad either. It offers them a good quality of life and that's what you're looking for. You may never see a great poop from Koda again, but.....you will learn to understand and know when he's not feeling well and when he's doing better. A healing candle for Koda will be lit tonight. Good luck little furry, good luck hurricanekatt....give your little Koda a hug from me ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 17, 2010 20:11:34 GMT -5
The thing we're hoping for is that the pred will settle his system down, and his poops will improve and stabilize in the improve state. Hopefully, the pred can then be reduced back slowly until Koda's off of it, and he'll remain stabilized for quite a while. It can be challenging to get a routine that works for Koda. We may try some things that cause a bit of a set back. It may seem like we're getting nowhere, but as patterns begin to emerge, we'll get better at avoiding the setbacks. So, the flare-ups will hopefully get fewer and farther between up to a certain point. You'll learn to recognize flare-ups that require more pred. Also, you'll get the pred. into Koda before the flare has a chance to get his system really riled up. The suck part is that this requires so much patience. And I know that you're type-A driven (you have to be to survive pre-med.)Type A's are typically not particularly patience when their ferrets are having issues - I know about this first hand -jennifer
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