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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 13:45:22 GMT -5
Ok, so I am starting a fresh thread and linking the previous ones here for a reference. I'll go through and pull the most important parts as I go too so that anyone who goes through this with their ferrets, or notices similar symptoms, can hopefully learn from what Koda and I have been through, and are about to go through... Most Recent: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=medicine&thread=5797&page=8POOP Pictures: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=medicine&thread=5902Red, Swollen Anus holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5484Excessive Urination/Defecation holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5676Stinky Seedy Poops: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5386Diarrhea holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5299Dry Nose holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5038The Original Blockage/Surgery holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4914&page=4Surgery holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=4985To Sum Up: Koda has been showing signs of IBD for the last several months. His poops were/are very mucousy, and often black and tarry. Some poops seemed to have blood in them, some were very very small poops, some were diarrhea, most were strange colors and textures from mucousy, to runny, to seedy. He has had a few fevers (dry nose) and dehydration due to water loss from the runny poops. He has lost his appetite a few times. Every time I thought something might be wrong, it would get better...then come back. I finally decided on a beef allergy and removed all beef from the diet. His poop was still off, and since he was eating lighter meat, a lighter color - which let us notice the blood in his poop that we were not seeing before. He had been on a diet of strictly turkey for about 1-2 weeks at this point. At this point, we really became concerned. I was about to take a fecal sample in to check for parasites when his poops started looking better. A few days later, they began to look really bad again. Did a fecal sample - no parasites. Later, he was still looking bad and we noticed that he was losing weight so we finally took him to the vet. The vet did an exam and found no swelling of his glands, liver, or kidneys, said he looked well hydrated, alert, had a nice coat, and seemed really healthy. Until Koda pooped for her and she saw how yucky it was. The poop went off for a fecal sample, and he got a mouth swab for heliobacter. He had a bacterial infection (high gut load of bacteria), but no heliobacter and no parasites. He was prescribed the following meds: Amoxycillin (antibiotics) Metranidazole (antibiotic for anaerobic bacteria, and anti-parasitic) Famotidine (Pepsid anti heart burn meds - human grade) Pepto-Bismol Carafate (tummy coater) He is almost done with the Amoxy and Metranidazole - tonight is day 10 meaning the Metranidazole is done after today, and the Amoxy is almost gone so we have a few more days of that. Now we are on the search for what foods he can and can't have, and what causes flare ups of IBD and what helps them.
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Post by rarnold18 on Oct 2, 2010 13:59:22 GMT -5
golly! Koda, your going to give your Momma grey hair!!!
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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 14:09:33 GMT -5
golly! Koda, your going to give your Momma grey hair!!! And those were only the health threads relevant to this particular topic! Little brat likes to keep my stress level up so that he can bring it down later with some snuggling.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 2, 2010 22:08:32 GMT -5
Hi Katt, Well, crap. (No pun intended). I was surfing for pet stores in your area that sell commercial raw....and I thought Denver was a "cow town" Anyway, I was hoping you might be able to find the Stella and Chewy's lamb diet. It's a very simple recipe that contains all lamb meats and bones - no egg. Even though lamb is a rich food, it tends to very digestible, and it's highly nutritious. All of the IBD ferts I've worked with so far have done really well on the lamb - in fact it has been one of the "IBD favorites". The reality is that the S&C lamb is cheaper than buying lamb from the grocery store because lamb is very strong tasting to the American palette, and only the blandest cuts make it to the super market. There's also a wool market for sheep. So, there are great meaty cuts of lamb available for pet foods. Colorado raises a lot of lamb, thus we see a lot of local lamb products for pets here. Without the shipping, S&C lamb patties go for 5.00 per pound (includes the organs and bones too. I have a pound of lean ground beef in the fridge that' 5.99 per pound. Indeed, that's the "expensive beef", but if Koda needs to avoid all poultry, his diet will become a bit restricted. If you do find a "yuppy pet store" (usually dog/cat stores), pleae let me know what brands they carry. write down the products and the prices. I can then look up the products/ingredients and let you know which seem best for Koda. Assuming it's not twice as expensive because it's in AK, it may be within budget as long as other foods can be cheaper. So, let's try the pork. One of the issues with no chicken is that bones from larger animals can be too big unless you can get rabbit (now rabbit in Colorado can be found in some butcher stores, but it's about the price of the very best kobe beef from Japan ). You can try poultry necks other than chicken (smaller turkey necks may work, and the smaller percentage of non-chicken poultry meat in Koda's diet may be just different enough to be OK.) I'm expecting that Koda may end up with a run of prednisone to quiet his system, but this is just my hunch. You probably alreay know this... but jut in case someone else who is newer to ferrets is reading.... If your vet does prescribe some pred. , be sure to verify that prednisolone (easier on the liver) is given rather than regular prednisone. There are a bunch of names for the various brands, but it seems that most vets prescribe pediapred. Regarding figuring out how much Koda eats daily...this is just so we can price out the feeding options to see what might be work for you. If you do have a food scale, you can weight the food. Otherwise you can estimate how much he eats in a day by packing the food into a measuring cup. Goat will be fine too. One thing to keep in mind is that the inflammatory process will probably require the pred. to settle Koda's system down, and food change alone may only help avoid another flare-up. -jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 3, 2010 0:47:48 GMT -5
Well, bad news. I gave Koda some meats this morning, and saw dark in the bag. I thought it was just chicken hearts, but I think there was some beef in it... His poops were looking SO SO much better! And now, today. they look really bad again all of a sudden! I posted the pics in the poop thread...black, tarry, mucousy, and seedy! I am really afraid that his is kicking us back to square one...! I got some pork tonight, and several frozen mice. What do you think would be best to start with? I can do f/t mice, but only for a certain period of time...I gave him a mouse tonight... Can I do say, one meat with a mouse a day still? Having that one whole prey seems to do a lot to help his poops. I know that would be starting with two proteins but... I can order Stella and Chewey's Online, but since it is freeze dried, it won't keep him very hydrated (he doesn't drink much water) and that is bad IMO because with the runny poop he is already losing more water than he should be. I wonder if I can continue the Metranidazole for another 10 days? It really did seem to be helping, but tonight is the last night of it technically...
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Post by katt on Oct 3, 2010 0:49:36 GMT -5
And yes, haha Alaska is very isolated. It is a relatively decent sized city (IMO - I am not a huge fan of big cities), but we have a very limited selection of..well, everything! lol Shopping online is just the way to go sometimes.
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Post by horse656 on Oct 3, 2010 6:29:20 GMT -5
i believe you can rehydrate those foods with water. or i read that somewhere.
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Post by sherrylynne on Oct 3, 2010 11:41:45 GMT -5
I always rehydrate the freeze dried my guys get. Dried, while better than kibble, will lead to the same sort of dehydration.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 3, 2010 12:24:11 GMT -5
The Stella & Chewy's comes in both freeze-dried and frozen. you can rehydrate the freeze-dried. Freeze-dried i expensive, but if you have to ship, the cost may be less than shipping frozen. The point here is that some of these foods can work as occasional foods to help provide variety. Here is a link to a place that has a lot of foods and supplements/probios, etc. They do a LOT of business (so food is fresh I know. I shop there) . They stated out years ago as" mail order only", but locals could pick up their orders at the warehouse at certain times during the week. . If you look online, you can find coupons for Only Natural Pet Store as well. This is nothing you need to worry about for now unless you've decided you can afford "importing" products longer term. Anyway..... Here are a few reminders to help you cope with all this stress... I thought of thi one last night after I went to bed. * Pepto bismol cause dark/black stool Here is a quote taken directly from the FAQ page of www.petobismol.com.... The active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol contains bismuth. When a small amount of bismuth combines with trace amounts of sulfur in your saliva and gastrointestinal tract, a black-colored substance (bismuth sulfide) is formed. This discoloration is temporary and harmless. It can last several days after you stop taking Pepto-Bismol. * carafacte - "....sucralfate also stimulates the increase of prostaglandin E2, epidermal growth factors (EGF, bFGF), and gastric mucus." www.medic8.com/medicines/Carafate.html* Koda probably also has antibiotic-related related loose sool from loss of good bacteria as well. His poops should improve a couple of days after getting off the meds. as well. So, some of what you're seeing with Koda's poops right now is probably related to meds. If any of the online ordering of foods works for you, here's the link to a place that hasquite a good selection of foods and probiotis, etc. Here is the main thing we need to accomplish short-term.....we need to find a base food that you can afford, that's readily available, and that does not trash Koda's tummy. The pork looks like it may be a reasonable option , and we'll first try it with turkey neck for bone if you feel comfortable wiih this approach. I also recommend that you pick up some pro-biotics to start repopulating his tummy with good stuff once he's off the meds. Plesae let me know if you have any concerns with this. We can work around things here and there, but we'll need to establish a good starting place and stick with a plan to see what works. I suggest that you keep a food/poop log. I doesn't need to be detailed. just write down what he eats and how he reacts. It's key that you come up with a standard for classification so thinks like having a rough day do not influence the ratings as much: I recommend keeping it SIMPLE sticking with the following rating system: * Good (can be modified with "+" only (as in GOOD+ for extra good) * Fair (cannot be modified with +/-) * Bad (can be modified with "- " only (as in BAD - for extra bad) Please remember that IBD babies never have great poops. SO "GOOD" will mean "Good for Koda". It will take a while for your rating system to become stable as you learn how Koda's system works. Here's what you should log: Use a spread sheet for ease date food fiber supplement (like probios & brand) meds. Notes (for anything important like "IBD flare-up", "Koda at Shane's", week before finals or mommy stressed- limited play time. Shedding, etc. The pumpkin can be fed raw as long as it's very finely chopped. Parasites in pork? It's possible in any meat. Pork got a bad reputation for parasites (trichinosis) because, a long time ago before I was even hatched, pigs on the farm were fed garbage. The FDA prohibits this practice and inspections now monitor raising of livestock for human consumption. Again, there's risk with all raw meat. but more cases of salmonella have come from vegetables these days - so......as my favorite saying goes...."pick your poison". A lot of people n this site fed raw pork. Do you have any of the following?: Microwave? small food processor? large food processor? blender? kitchen/poultry shears? This will give me an idea on what we may want to try for Koda. Sometimes "presentation" can be as important as what you're feeding. Please let me know if this sounds like a "workable" plan for you and/or if you have any questions. Thanks! -jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 3, 2010 15:18:22 GMT -5
If the dark poop was caused by the peptobismol wouldn't they have been dark earlier rather than all of a sudden? I mean he has been getting it regularly for 10 days now... that is a relief to know though! I'll definitely keep that in mind. I am not sure when to stop giving the peptobismol yet, but the vet gets in Tues/Wed so I will know then and I should be done with the amoxy by then too... Microwave - check! small food processor - Nope large food processor - Nope blender - check! (Magic Bullet blenders are the best things ever!) kitchen/poultry shears - no But I have an ulu knife that I use to chop all of Koda's bones. It works very very well to chop through...well...anything! lol Definitely the best cutting invention ever made! As for the pork, I have fed him pork before, but I just wondered if feeding mainly pork would increase his risk for parasites. I can get prok chops easily. So that's all good there, and I can get pork kidney, pork chitterlings, and pork uteries... haha I also THINK that the local oriental market has pork stomach...that is all I know of for pork organs, chicken organs are obviously the easiest to find. I have turkey necks in my freezer and can get more when I run out. So the pork and turkey necks sounds easy enough, though he won't be getting any organ meat... What about pumpkin? Should I be giving that starting today, and how much each day/meal? Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?
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Post by Heather on Oct 3, 2010 19:42:57 GMT -5
**Anyone know how long canned pumpkin stays good (in the fridge) after it is opened?** When it gets furry No seriously, it doesn't take very long...that's how it goes bad. If you have whole pumpkin (raw stuff), I bake mine (cut it in half or if too large more pieces)...I find that it's not as easily digested if raw, so I cook mine. You may find your own solution to this. Pork kidneys is an organ meat. Will he eat those? I find that I can get pork liver too, not as often as beef but I can get pork liver. ciao
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Post by katt on Oct 3, 2010 20:01:19 GMT -5
I have never ever seen pork liver here. That does not mean that it doesn't exist in a store here somewhere though. lol I just know that he needs a variety of organs (per vet when he had his initial check up, and well, more variety is always better) and if he is allergic to beef and chicken (I REALLY hope not on the chicken!) then I don;t know how to get him that variety...
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Post by katt on Oct 3, 2010 20:17:49 GMT -5
Well I did get an ice cube tray for Koda, what if I froze canned-pumpkin cubes?
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Post by Heather on Oct 3, 2010 22:14:00 GMT -5
Seemingly pumpkin changes it's texture when frozen and doesn't mix or blend as well (I don't know this personally as I've never frozen it before, but this came up on another list I'm on). I would guess that the breakdown of the cell walls caused by freezing changes the texture and it's ability to retain liquid. I usually make muffins out of left over pumpkin. I know that if I mix the pumpkin in meat (I use it in my ground mix), I can freeze it with no loss of texture. I find with the pork liver, it just shows up on the grocery shelves. It doesn't look much different than beef (firmer texture and slight colour difference), so if you don't read the tag, you won't know that it's not beef. ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 4, 2010 0:15:51 GMT -5
Since you don't have a food processor, t might be easiest to cook the pumpkin in the micro wave until it's soft. Put a SMALL amount of water rin a covered microwave dish with chunks of pumpkin (no seeds!. ) Then nuke the pumpkin until it's easily scraped away from the skin if the skin is tough. mash the pumpkin up with a fork ir potato masher and put it in the ice cube trays then store the cubes in ziplck baggies. This will be easier than trying to mince a bunch of pumpkin with a knife....that would take forever and be messy!!!! I would start out adding about 10% pumpkin to Koda's diet to see if that helps. Do you feed Koda the pumpkin with chunks of meat? Like Heather, I mix the fiber in with ground foods. If that seems to go well, I'd slowly increase the amount of pumpkin about 20 %. If the poop stops improving before you hit 20%, then don't increase the amount of pumpkin beyond that point. I assume you will talk to the vet on Tues./wed. ? What I'm really curious about is whether or not Koda gets some pred. The reason why I'm interested in the pred. is because , with IBD, ferrets improve a bit on antibiotics, but the antibiotics don't help with the inflammation. If Koda responds well to the pred., then the "diagnosis" will be IBD. I expect we may find that Koda doesn't deal well with Chicken. It may be the kind of thing where He can deal with some smaller amounts of chicken when his tummy is doing well. Also, some ferrets can handle cornish game hen and turkey, but not regular chicken. Let's not worry about that just yet. I'm suspecting that Koda will probably have the "screamin' poops" until he gets some pred. I suspect his immune system is going bonkers on his gut How does Koda do on raw egg? I know a lot of ferrets have trouble with it. Has Koda been given any raw egg since he's started having tummy problems? We'll find a way to get Koda some good variety. We may need to order some things in for him, but if we can get him on a couple of "base foods" that are cheaper, adding smaller amounts of the more expensive foods may work for you. If you use pork and beef as base foods, small amounts of other items (such as stella and chewy's lamb, smaller amounts of poultry (turkey, duck, pheasant, etc) can be rotated in with one of the base mixes here and there. Again, it will take time to sort all this out. -jennifer
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