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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 29, 2010 16:38:54 GMT -5
Don't panic - this may not be a permanent recommendation. There's A LOT of differing opinion on what may/may not help with cystine stones. If there's this much debate over whether or not certain foods are issues, then the short-term consumption of a lot of egg probably won't have made a difference.
One thing that will definitely help is eating a wet diet and drinking a LOT of water.
Cystine stones are rare because they actually result from inheritance of a recessive gene from both parents. Cysteine in an amino acid that's required by the body. Normally cysteine goes into the kidneys and gets routed back nto the blood stream. What causes cystine stones is when the kidneys fail to properly route the cysteine back into the blood stream, and cysteine then makes its way to the urinary tract where cystine stones can form.
With typical treatment for bladder/kidney stones of any kind, low protein diets are recommended because the composition of the stones tend to come from high protein foods. With the most common forms of stones, avoiding certain foods (proteins) puts less of something into the system. Less intake = less output through the urinary tract. However, this is not necessarily the case with cysteine, because the body can manufacture cystine anyway. (I need to do research on whether or not this is true for ferrets. )
We're simply playing this really safe by initially avoiding the items listed above, which have the potential to generate a lot of cystine.
Did your vet give any dietary recommendations? Did your vet indicate what her concerns were with raw diet? Did your vet recommend any meds.?
I make an appt. for a recheck on my brats' progress with their deslorelin implants....I'll pick my vet's brain on this...he's been treating ferrets for a LONG time, and he's VERY good.
This will take a while to get figured out. I'll be providing some links to reading materials as well so you can understand what's going on and make informed decisions.
Gotta run ! -jennifer
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Post by jacksmomma on Sept 29, 2010 17:06:37 GMT -5
I've been researching the web extensively and everything I read seems to contradict the next thing i read. My vet said these Cystein stones are the most common ones seen in ferrets, yet everything I've read via the web says the polar opposite, that yes this is rare and a genetically inherited defect. I like my vet (as a person) but i'm really starting to question if she's qualified to take care of Jack; even if she is an "exotic pets" vet. I've turned drinking from the bathroom sink into a game for Jack with a jingle ball, so i've tricked him into drinking MUCH more water than he normally would. My vet's big suggestion was to switch Jack to a "ferret" kibble. Well just because it says ferret on the bag does NOT make for improvement. That's where i interjected that i was strongly considering a raw/ whole prey diet. Her words "I'm 50:50 on raw" Her concerns being salmonella and him chocking on bones. Sometimes i'm so skeptical that these vets even actually want to help make our pets healthy. Healthy pets = no money. It's a cynical thought... and hence why i'm looking to alternative sources of help. I'm completely new to ferrets but you all know ALOT more about raising ferrets than most vets because you're actually doing it So Frustrated I thought I rescued Jack and was giving him the best I could, now I feel like I've been slowly killing him
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 29, 2010 18:57:27 GMT -5
DO NOT feel guilty...ferrets are freaking "science experiments" to begin with. You have NOT been killing him - besides, as we've both been reading, ther's a LOT of controversy around whether or not diet even makes a difference with cystine stones. Did you actually SEE the pathology report from the lab??? Did your vet do any blood work? I would expect a vet would want to check out BUN/creatinine, signs of azotemia, etc. If you had a verbal discussion only, perhaps your vet mis-spoke by mistake and meant to say struvite stones??? ANyway, she's definitely made a mistake somewhere because cystine stones are NOT common at all. Here is an article from Dr. Jerry Murray a VERY well-respected fert vet.... www.smallanimalchannel.com/media/ferrets/ferret-health/bladder-stones.aspx.pdfThe one thing I'm not convinced of is the need for a low protein diet. I bookmarked some stuff at home, which suggests that diet may not be as critical as one may think with cystine stones. BTW... My vet WAS (past tense) anti-raw...but since I've been feeding raw for the past 5.5 years, he's now pro-raw for ferrets - FOR THE RIGHT CLIENTS. He's REALLY good about discussing things and explaining his experiences, recommendations and concerns I'm hoping to get a good amount of info from my vet on these stones. He will not automatically recommend kibble because he's become a STRONG believer in raw diet for ferrets. -jennifer
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Post by jacksmomma on Sept 30, 2010 13:24:19 GMT -5
@ Jennifer We did a full blood panel (as my bill informs me) and i made sure that that included her checking for adrenal (I read one of the symptoms could be bladder stones). Everything was ok, white blood cells a tiny bit high but that was consistent with a bladder full of stones. Oh, and no adrenal (his tail is full and bushy-so in the back of my head i knew he wasn't). I actually spoke to my Vet's colleague today, who came recommended from a local ferret rescuer and he confirmed (with lab report in hand) that they were in-fact cysteine stones. He did, however, recommend doing a follow-up xray in 3 months and then another at 6 months to make sure they're gone. Which, great if they're not there, if they're there, i have to have another $1250 surgery/ vet bill? He also said that over a three year period he usually only sees ONE ferret with bladder stones (wow- I have awesome luck! ) BUT that he has never seen one return with a second case of stones. fingers crossed. I spoke with 3 Vets today and every single one is anti-raw. I don't understand how after several years of school they can support feeding food that has so much added c*ap in it? Even the *best* ferret foods I can find have plant matter and other undesirables . Vita, she's in charge of quality control of the *noms* Jack can't eat unless she's tasted it for him Attachments:
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Post by Heather on Sept 30, 2010 15:24:43 GMT -5
I've spoken with a couple of vets who have admitted their total instruction on pet diet was an 8 hr seminar (2- 4 hr sessions) put on by Hill's Pet food. It basically gave them a break down of their product, it did touch on the rudimentary aspects of dietary needs but only as it pertained to their product. So, your knowledge of your pet's dietary needs is probably greater than your vets. Where our knowledge falls apart is with the actual anatomy and physiology of our pets. I had one vet who had been been with me for awhile suddenly change her whole platform on raw feeding (from being against, to seeing my guys, seeing how it helped them deal with disease and recouperation and being pro raw and advocating it to other clients) to being openly against raw feeding. When I actually pushed to find out the reason for her flipflop attitude, she had been threatened with suspension by her boss (the owner of the clinic) who gets a kick back from every tin and bag of pet food that goes out of the clinic as well as financial support from the companies for supplies and equipment. I now deal with a vet who has her own business, who is pro raw and answers only to her own mind. Please always remember if you find that a clinic is anti raw, it doesn't mean that everyone in that clinic supports this, but that political factions within that clinic dictate what they support this method. It also means that just because you've found an great vet but they don't support raw, doesn't mean that you can't continue with that vet. The only time that this becomes a factor is when everything that occurs to your pet comes back to how you feed your furchild (not that this isn't important but when you furkid comes in with a limp that is obviously a thorn in his foot and the vet goes on a rant about if you didn't feed raw ) ciao
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Post by sherrylynne on Sept 30, 2010 17:23:23 GMT -5
I see two different vets. My ferret vet knows that raw/whole prey is better(she's admitted to this), but still pushes for a kibble diet. I recently saw a cat vet in an emergency situation who almost hit the ceiling when I so much as mentioned a raw diet(it's dangerous, you will either kill them, or make them sick), at least until I "explained" my position on it. She then decided we'd not discuss it anymore My present cat vet is very pro raw, even went on to talk about how so many carbs in their diets is the main reason for skyrocketing diabetes in cats. These three vets all work in the same clinic, by the way
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