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Post by Heather on Mar 3, 2010 0:18:04 GMT -5
Name: Stephanie HF Forum Username: StephyWolf
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I honestly don't recall. It came up at some point when looking for high quality ferret foods.
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. I'm wanting to switch to a fully natural diet, and I prefer frozen over live by far. Beyond that I'm still learning of the different options.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? My ferret has been having some issues on his EVO diet. In short I need to change his diet and I believe that switching to a natural diet will be better in the long run than changing kibbles.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? My ferret's health and well being is a high priority for me. I'm willing to spend the time necessary to switch him over from kibble.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? I have one male ferret named Twilight. He is estimated to be about 3 years old. He currently has diarrhea from an unknown issue (Vet is thinking IBD and wants me to do a diet change), and because of this is a couple ounces under his normal weight at 2 pounds and 4 ounces.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) He eats Evo ferret kibble, is given an N-bone from time to time, generally gets tone at least once a day, and has had pinkie mice on 2 occasions (though he was mostly playing with it, licking it, and only took a bite or two).
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? Pinkie mice have been our only expedition into the natural diet world thus far. That mostly ended in me having to clean most of the internal parts of the mice from the cage (sigh)
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Twilight is my first and only ferret and information is something always needed (boy has it ever been a learning experience even with all the reading done).
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Every day. Though as a note roughly every other weekend travel from my home in Virginia to West Virginia and am gone between 2pm (EST) until about 1am the next day.
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Sadly I lack a decent camera at the moment.
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Spiritualtramp) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 3, 2010 23:52:48 GMT -5
Hi Steph! We got you set up and enrolled to start the switch, and I requested to be your mentor so voila! Here I am! As I know your situation a bit already, I hope we can do this with as little confusion and frustration as possible.
A little about myself: my name is Erinn, I'm 25, a student (in a vet tech program currently, with hopes to go on to pre-vet.) I work in an animal hospital, too, and show my ferrets about twice a year in the AFA. I live in NH with my four raw-fed kids, Pilot, Diesel-Electric, Tank and NB's Captain Morgan. I also have a raw-fed cat, named Elsabet. I got into the raw feeding world when I adopted Diesel, and he took to it without any hesitation. I switched everyone else once my girl Sailor (RIP) was diagnosed with lymphoma and IBD. The control I had over her diet vastly improved her quality of life, and she was able to stay relatively comfortable for a year before she was also diagnosed with adrenal, and I made the choice to help her to the bridge.
Raw diets are not only wonderful healthwise for our ferrety friends, but it gives us many facets of control, which can help to figure out sensitivities, help in our vets diagnosing allergies, and gives us options in covering nutritional needs not always met in commercial diets. We can decide whether we want to feed whole prey, frankenprey (prey-model raw meats), freeze-dried, or some combination of the three. I feed a frankenprey-based diet with whole prey and freeze-dried added occasionally (once per week each.)
Frankenprey is the most common here, as well as the cheapest. Most of us use a one-week schedule for basing meals, and the idea is that in the span of one week, to cover all the aspects whole prey would offer. So, it is generally a combination of raw meaty bones, muscle meats, and organ meats, in rotation, to cover all the needs over 7 days. I feed two meals per day, as do most raw-feeders - but again, this is flexible and we can work around what works best for you.
Let me know if frankenprey sounds like the route that you want to take, with supplemental mice/frozen prey, and we can get geared up to go!
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 4, 2010 1:39:25 GMT -5
Hey Erinn, I'm excited to get this started! Bout to hit 20 myself and debating for the zoology program or the wildlife biology program but all to meet the same ends of working with wolves eventually. It's just Twilight as far as ferrets whom I hope to get to a PA show sometime soon (tried my hand at dog shows but I hear ferret shows are completely different), but I've also got an Australian Shepherd named Aleu.
Gotta say sadly cheap defiantly sounds good at the moment. I'm trying to figure out though what, if any, is the difference between Frankenprey and whole prey diets? The line seems a little shady with some sources saying they're the same and other saying they're slightly different. I also had previously been told and read that ferrets should have access to food 24/7 and obviously leaving raw meat out all day isn't the brightest idea in the world. Gotta admit I'm a little worried about this part of the switch and how this will affect my furball.
Yea be prepared to be swamped with questions- People on other transfer threads seemed a little more prepared than me haha.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 6, 2010 12:23:27 GMT -5
Ferret shows are completely different than dog shows! They're less regimented and staunchy and more fun, laid-back, and if you know a lot about dog breed standards and how some of them can be pretty controversial - well ferret standards are much more humane and really are for the bettering of the animal. Not to mention the shopping and raffles - it's so much fun!
Okay, whole prey is giving whole (live or pre-killed) mice, rats, guinea pigs, etc, fur & all. That can be both difficult to do and expensive. I offer frozen mice once a week, and occasionally buy chicks and quail from Hare Today (http://www.hare-today.com) for meals. The kids love them but they are pricey so I don't base their diet off of them. Some people are able to raise their own feeder colonies which makes feeding whole prey much more cost-effective.
Frankenprey is basically feeding cuts of meat found at the grocery store. It's sometimes also called "prey model raw," meaning it's modeled after feeding whole prey, but not actually whole prey. Chicken wings, turkey legs, liver, kidney, heart, gizzards, etc are used to make meals. Whole prey is considered balanced every meal, since each mouse or chick or whatever offers the right proportion of bone, muscle meat, organs, fat, and most essential nutrients necessary for ferrets. Whereas frankenprey aims for balance over a period of time (a week, usually) by feeding organ one meal, muscle meat another, etc. Does that help clear up the confusion a bit? It is sort of a strange concept to think about, I understand. But when done properly, frankenprey isn't really much more expensive than feeding kibble. In fact oftentimes it can be cheaper - with the added bonus of being flexible as your budget changes! I'll post a sample menu of mine to give you a better idea of what I mean, if you'd like.
Kibble-fed ferrets do need kibble available 24/7, and this is because much of the nutrients are not absorbed when they eat a meal. It passes through them relatively unchanged in a couple of hours, and then they feel hungry again. Raw foods are more absorb able and offer much "purer" nutrients, in a more bio-available form, and so feeding once or twice a day is of little consequence. Animal proteins stick with ferrets for much longer than plant-based proteins, and for monumentally longer periods of time than carbohydrates and sugars. Ferrets also burn fats the way that one thinks of us burning sugars for energy. So their bodies are much more efficient at using raw foods, and don't require as much food per pound (you will be shocked at first at how little Twilight seems to eat!) and because they are utilizing nearly all of what they eat, they are pooping far less. Energy levels are more consistent and longer-lasting because they aren't having blood sugar spikes and drops as they do with kibbles, as even high-quality kibbles offer carbohydrates.
Many people do leave raw available all day, but many don't as well. It's really up to you. I remove their meals (generally) after they eat. Some foods (like soupies,) I do leave out all day. I find that if my kids really eat heavily for one meal, they sometimes don't even eat the next meal because they are still fine from earlier. Even if I leave meals available all day, which I have done and occasionally do, they really don't eat throughout the day. A little picking here and there but mostly it gets stashed or dried up and gross.
Keep the questions coming. I know this period of time is nerve-wracking and you're trying to fit your head around these sort of 'taboo' ideas. So keep asking and letting me know your concerns. We can work with them, around them, and because of them to find a natural path that makes you comfortable as much as it makes Twilight healthy.
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 6, 2010 14:13:49 GMT -5
Thankfully Aussies aren't much in the controversial breeds light- My girl had been doing shows and herding trials but I had to pull out for some medical issues at the time and now with her at 8 years we haven't bothered to really enter again unless it's local. I've been continuing my reading, and calling around different stores in my area- Only one store sells even frozen mice I've found and they are indeed a bit pricey (A friend with snakes suggested one place that sells live, but I doubt Twilight would make a good hunter in any case from his personality- Too... I hate to say lazy but he's a pretty laid back boy). Too be honest I don't think I really have the room, nor the stomach to raise my own mice. It's fuzzy, it moves, I'm probably going to get a pet attachment Frankenprey with mice, chicks, or other once a week sounds fine with me. If I can use any cuts from cows all the better (my family owns a cow farm, and I'm the only one in the family that'll touch liver so I can snag that or anything else "odd" with little issue if it's usable in this diet). I wouldn't mind seeing an example schedule still though. Twilight is a little pig, but my biggest concern is going to be how to get him to touch this new food (like most ferrets he's not too open to the new).
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 6, 2010 22:46:52 GMT -5
Herding trials always sound so fun, I would love to see one someday! It's too bad she had to stop, but of course you don't want to overstress her system.
Many people feed cow parts as part of the diet, so that's definitely wonderful you have access to a good supply of cheap or free stuff! Cow cannot make up his whole diet, however, so do keep that in mind. Generally we say at least three different animal sources per week. More is better, but three is a good round, easily attainable number.
All the cow parts that your family doesn't use will be great: heart, liver, kidney, other organs (even brain occasionally!) Cow bones are too hard really for them, but oxtail segments make nice treats. My girl Sailor (RIP) looooved oxtail. Beef/steak can also make up a muscle meat meal. You're definitely in a good position, if I do say so myself.
My Ranger, who passed away in January, was very sensitive to beef so I never fed it. I do use beef hearts and occasionally veal liver or veal kidney.
Mice, chicks, quail, etc can be ordered online at much better rates than you're going to find in local shops. I often buy mice spur of the moment at a reptile breeder and distributer/pet store nearby, and they're $1 a SMALL mouse. On rodentpro.com you can get large adults for 30 cents each when they have sales. Hare-Today.com also sells mice at a good price. Shipping is expensive, but if you buy in bulk you still end up saving money compared to local sources, usually.
Getting ferrets to switch does take time, ingenuity, and patience - but we'll find a way that works for Twilight. Does he eat soupies or some form of liquid food? Uncle Jim's or Nupro? Generally I find good success with using what I call The Soup Method to switch ferrets to raw. We start out with the regular soup they love and readily accept. Gradually we start adding in bits of ground raw meat until the soup thickens considerably. Then we start adding small chunks of meat. Once that is accepted, we work on getting larger chunks and bone into the diet. By this point, kibble will be a thing of the past, and all we would need to do is perfect the diet by getting all the nutritional bases covered, and that's that! It's not as daunting a task as it looks like right now, and Twilight will get there.
Here's my weekly feeding schedule. I have 'general' things listed and fill that with different things depending on what I have, what they haven't eaten recently, etc - to keep the variety up. I'll clarify what things I use to fill each category, too.
Sunday: AM - hearts/gizzards PM - bone-in poultry Monday: AM - bone-in poultry/rabbit PM - bone-in poultry/rabbit Tuesday: AM - boneless lamb PM - bone-in poultry Wednesday: AM - liver &/or kidney PM - bone-in poultry Thursday: AM - boneless pork PM - bone-in poultry Friday: AM - bone-in poultry PM - soup & mice Saturday: AM - 'exotic' boneless meat PM - bone-in poultry/rabbit
For hearts, I use either chicken hearts or beef hearts. I've never found anything else, but they like both. Heart is a vital part of their diet as it is a very good source of taurine, which is a necessary amino acid for heart and eye function.
For bone-in poultry I use any chicken pieces (wings, legs, thighs, breasts, backs), smaller turkey pieces (wings are usually okay, but most everything else is too large), pheasant, duck, quail, and Cornish game hen.
For rabbit, most bones are okay. The arms/legs are a good size. I order rabbit from Hare-Today, and if I don't have any Hare Today stuff in, I sometimes buy the commercial rabbit - Bravo! brand raw makes one, and Nature's Variety also makes one. Those can be handy to have around as they make easy meals. They can be pricey though so it's an occasional thing.
For boneless lamb, it's pretty much whatever is cheaper at the grocery store. Stew meat, kabob meat, anything. If you get it with the bone in, just cut it out. Lamb bones are too large and hard and can break a ferret's teeth.
For liver/organs I generally use chicken livers and beef kidneys, but beef livers would be good, too. Liver must make up at least 50% of the weekly organ ration, as liver has a good concentration of essential nutrients including vitamin A. One serving of liver is about the size of a chicken liver. It's possible to overdose on vitamin A so always be mindful of how much is offered. Liver and the secreting organs of the stomach (such as kidneys and spleen and pancreas) will all turn the stool a runny black. This is normal and okay, so as a forewarning - don't panic!
For pork, I get whatever is on sale. Make sure it's not cured hams or pre-marinated. Porkchops are good and often on sale where I am. Pork shoulders are also good, just make sure to cut out the bone. Sometimes I offer the smaller shoulder bones as a chew, and remove it short after so no one hurts themselves when I am not looking.
For 'exotic' meats it's sort of a wild card. Right now I have elk that I found at a pet store, it's Bravo! brand. My cat LOVES it. I also use bison, which I can get at the grocery store, or goat, or venison. These are just things I like to add to their diet but obviously you don't have to search out a herd of elk or anything. They make for a good "treat" for the kids, so I like to offer them when possible. If I can't find anything really exotic, I give them boneless turkey or something they don't often get.
My soup is a mix-and-match system depending on what I need. I use Pingford's Porridge as a base, which I prepare and freeze into ice cube trays. Then I bag the cubes and store in the freezer. I also prepare cubes of a boneless raw meat (duck right now, but it changes. ) I keep pumpkin frozen in cubes, nanogreens, and some goats milk and/or yogurt frozen in cubes. I add baby food, raw eggs, whatever I want when I serve it, and try to rotate the additions every week. This week it was pumpkin, because they are shedding and that can help push through hairballs. The nanogreens are sort of a trial thing right now, mostly for my adrenal girl. Info on additions of nanogreens is floating around in a thread somewhere around here, I can look that up for you when the time comes, if that is something you want to consider adding to Twilight's diet.
Okay, so that is a lot of info right there. Let me know if you have any questions on anything!
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 6, 2010 23:45:00 GMT -5
Well it was my health issues that knocked us out, she's still running like a puppy! Herding trials are crazy, but it's amazing to watch those dogs run like that.
I know better than to do one animal, but I wasn't sure if cow was something actually usable for ferrets. It's actually about time to fill that order so I'll be throwing that stuff onto the list to come to my house (thankfully we have 2 freezers!). Veal isn't generally on the menu for us, but I'll throw that out there in case a case comes up for it (Not sure how much you know about farm work, but occasionally the hand is forced so to speak). Come fall venison will surly hit the menu though- I'm crazy bout the stuff, and try to keep the freezer stocked though this season was basically a flop for me. Sadly, online ordering is off the books for at least a week or so as someone got my visa card info around 4am today and $130 vanished by 8am for ipod touch games and videos (if I didn't get the receipts in my email I would have never known), it was fixed this morning but it's still taking time for me to get my funds usable again (up to 48 hours) and for a new card to show up (a week or two). Much to my shame and dismay- Twilight has never had any sort of soup. It did occur to me today though that he has had cooked turkey and chicken both before and seemed to enjoy it but I could never get him to eat much, it was only small quantities, and I'm not sure what he would do if presented to it since it's been awhile especially considering it was not raw (I have always had a bad habit of falling for his begging and letting him try any season free meat from my plate).
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 7, 2010 11:36:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear about your Visa issue - my debit card got stolen a while back and it took months to get everything back in order The bank was just lazy, I'm pretty sure, and I had to keep bugging them to get anything done. It's good news that he will try foods from your plate - a lot of ferrets won't. What if you gave him some small chunks of raw chicken? Can you try that to see if he'll take it? Hand-feed it, like a treat, and see if he likes it. If he takes it and stashes it, you can leave some in his cage with him. He may eventually get curious and try some. You could also try layering some small chunks of chicken over his bowl of kibble. This way he'd have to nose through the meat to get to the kibble, and in the process he may eat the meat as well, and decide it's yummy. If this works we may not have to try the soup method - though I do still think getting him accustomed to a soup would be beneficial, as giving meds can be much easier through soup, and it can be a useful sick food if he were to ever get ill and stop eating altogether. Not a priority at this moment in time but something to consider. Let me know if he takes raw meat out of your hand instead of cooked!
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 8, 2010 20:58:44 GMT -5
Bad news- I'm still locked out of my bank account and unable to go grocery shopping. Good news- Had some turkey on hand! So far I've gotten him to lick it... That's it. He'll lick it but won't take it from me, and won't chew it and eat it. I put some raw bits in his food but thus far that's a no go as well, though I'll update if that changes (Did it this evening and he has yet to go through for another meal).
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 10, 2010 13:46:23 GMT -5
The turkey is still a no go, I'm going to snag some chicken this weekend and try that. And god help me.... I now have two ferrets.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 10, 2010 22:18:50 GMT -5
You can keep trying the turkey, there's not difference in the two really and if that's what you have might as well use it. Try cutting it into tiny teeny weeny slivers (this is easier to do if it's still partially frozen!) and try scruffing Twilight & the newbie (!!!) and shoving it into his mouth. Sometimes the scruff and stuff method works at getting them to chew and swallow.
So, what's the deal with the newbie??? Going to switch him/her as well, I gather?
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 10, 2010 23:36:30 GMT -5
For reasons I'm still not understanding I ended up with a beautiful white and very light brown (Champaign I believe) kit that I'm still trying to chose a name for. He's along for the switch as well and being as young as he is he'll likely be the easier to switch (and maybe if Twilight sees him eating it he'll try it!). I will say I can 100% smell the difference between Twilight being on the Evo and this lil guy having been on the Marshell's (He STINKS- I washed him, he changed color, and he still smells horrid).
Scruff and stuff drives Twilight crazy though- He'll fight it, spit it out, and basically raise a huge fuss. I'll try smaller pieces again in the morning and see if we can get anywhere with that. Maybe the new boy will give it a shot and lead the way.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 10, 2010 23:49:41 GMT -5
Ouuu I love champagne boys! Definitely my favorite color of ferts... I can't wait to hear all about him. What are you naming him? The babies do tend to take to the raw much more easily, so that's good news. And ferts do tend to following examples so let's hope Champagne boy's a strong leader Have you tried mixing the meat with his kibble? Another method we try here a lot is crushing up kibble and "breading" the meat in the crushed kibble dust, like you're breading chicken to fry. It might be worth a try if you've got a rolling pin and some time
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Post by StephyWolf on Mar 11, 2010 1:02:31 GMT -5
I was doubting it due to how uncommon the color is but the AFA color chart description of Cinnamon sounds closer. I posted pictures feel free to correct me. I've always been quite found of the really dark colored ferrets, but this guy had me caught with a look. I've got enough free time that the breading idea might be worth a shot assuming I can find the rolling pen (bah who ever uses those? Least I don't have to fry it- My last try and breading and frying was a failure ). I'll try meat in the kibble in the morning- Being 1am right now I don't want to go to sleep and let it sit all night and not see who if anyone is eating it.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 11, 2010 11:18:08 GMT -5
I just checked out your photos, he's one cute little guy. I'd call him a champagne though, and as he ages and is put on a better diet, you will see the reddish coloring decrease. When I got Diesel I half thought he was a cinnamon, too, but his color lightened up considerably once his hob hormones wore off. And to be honest, in all the AFA shows I've attended, I've never seen a true cinnamon! Diesel when I first got him: Diesel now: Let me know how the breading idea or the meat & kibble idea work.
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