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Post by faunafreak on Mar 4, 2009 1:08:43 GMT -5
Since it was a day later, I didn't offer the mouse again. I tried offering Oatmeal a frozen mouse yesterday, but he wouldn't touch it. I finished the soup today, using 1 rabbit, 4 quail, and a duck. Didn't put any kibble in the soup this time, which I hope is why it is so much lighter than normal. I mixed in 2 spoonfuls of the ground meat/organ/bone mix (which also has the added minerals/vitamins mentioned before, as well as 4 egg yolks, 4 tbsp olive oil, and 4 cups of water blended in), and offered it to the fuzzies with limited success. Keller went right for it, which I expected. Oatmeal wanted nothing to do with it, and wiggled and squirmed when I put some on his nose. At least he licked it off, but he fought every bit of the way. Ushba and Llullu weren't interested at first either, but when the realized that I was going to hold them and smear their noses, they decided that the "better part of valour" would be to lick it off my fingers before it got to their noses After a few minutes, I was even able to put them down and get them to eat off the spoon (well, as long as I kept one hand on them, anyway ). They each got about two spoonfuls before I let them go wandering off. I left the bowl in their room, as I can't reheat it now that there's the meat and bones in them. About 1/2 was gone when I came back, but of course that could ALL have been Keller, or possibly Skit (I'm be willing to bet she got in there to "help" clean the bowl) Should I put kibble out tonight, just in case some of the ferrets are absolutely refusing the food?
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 4, 2009 9:50:33 GMT -5
Ok, I did put the kibble down last night, and put a generous sprinkle in the soup I left out. I got Ushba to take a few licks, but he kept trying to get away once he realized there was kibble out. Llullu ate a little bit more, but not much. This morning it looked as though the soup wasn't touched after I went to bed
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 6, 2009 1:23:00 GMT -5
Tried a gizzard today - Keller tried it once I'd covered it in soup, but gave up after a bit. He was the only one I could get to try any. Ushba and Llullu are a little more willing to eat the soup now, but don't want to eat the meat they find. Oatmeal still puts up a fight. I'm wondering if one of the issues is the temperature of the soup. They're used to soup that is very warm, and the meat cools it down a lot. I try to leave it out to room temp, but even in SoFla, that's not very warm at the moment.
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Post by Heather on Mar 6, 2009 1:30:26 GMT -5
Persistence is the name of the game when doing this. At least you had reasonable success with most of your guys. It's great that you got Ushba and Llullu to eat from the spoon. You may find that you have to "start" them up again (basically touching some soupy to their noses) but they'll probably become more and more willing to lick it up from the spoon. I would continue at least for now to continue to offer them kibble at night. When they start eating more from the spoon and less from your finger and eating a good amount just before they go to bed, then leave small amounts of the soupy when they go to bed instead of the kibbles. I find that my guys eat little to nothing during the night. Some things get eaten right away, but they're special things like mice or quail parts...things like ground meats or chicken necks appear to be left until the morning. I think that though they do a bit of prowling that they sleep most of the night without much distubance. Great variety of meat by the way. Good stuff. I will check in with you tomorrow. I think I've managed to get rid of all the computer fleas (took in a couple of nasty viruses) ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 9, 2009 0:07:11 GMT -5
As you thought, Ushba and Llullu are becoming more willing to eat the soup. They get a lick from my fingers, and then the spoon, then I can just put the spoon down and let them eat from the bowl. Oatmeal was pretty willing to eat the soup yesterday, but today he wouldn't touch it unless it was on my finger, and even then he didn't seem too enthusiastic. I'd only put 3 soup cubes in the mix with 2 spoonfuls of raw meat, so I heated up another soup cube, mixed a spoonful of the other soup in, and tried that. Of course, then it was too hot . I let it cool down, then mixed it into the soup that the other 3 were eating. When he came back, he was much more willing to eat the soup. However, I need to get some pumpkin tomorrow. He's got a strange cough that he didn't have before yesterday, like something's stuck in his throat. It might be a hairball, but I'm also worried it might be a bit of bone. Keller had a similar cough a few days ago after I gave him a rat pup, but I haven't heard it today. He does like the rat pups - though I have to make sure to give Skit a mouse so she doesn't get upset. She sounds so pitiful when she watches me give him a mouse/rat and she doesn't get one! On the subject of bones and throats, I mentioned to a friend that I'm trying to switch to raw. She said her sister fed a raw diet to her dog until he had to undergo emergency surgery to remove a bone lodged in his throat. I also noticed what appeared to be a long (1/2in, I think?) bit of bone in some poop the other day, so I'm kind of worried about it doing damage to the digestive tract. How likely is that to happen? I think that's about it for the past two days. I'll probably leave the ratio of soup:ground raw at 2:1 until Oatmeal stops throwing fits about it, then I'll take a cube out and see what happens. I'm also going to thaw out the quail bones and try to get everyone to eat some.
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 9, 2009 11:54:56 GMT -5
Never mind - he's not eating the rats completely. I found Saturday's rat in a dresser drawer - sans head - and yesterday's rat in another drawer. I put them both in the cage when I put the ferrets up for the night. Today, a bit more of Saturday's rat was eaten and yesterday's rat is missing its head. I tried giving one to Skit and she wants nothing to do with it.
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Post by Heather on Mar 9, 2009 23:08:59 GMT -5
They'll let you know if you move to fast in regards to adding raw meat faster than they want to switch. You worked it out correctly with Oatmeal, he wasn't ready to loose that much of his soupy just yet . The problem with multi ferret switches is that some are more willing to make the change than others. I've found that trying to keep them roughly in the same place with everyone, tossing in and experiment or two (different meats, whole or ground, sometimes they will surprise you and just gobble it up). Bones....I personally have not encountered any scary problems. A couple of my guys have on occasion got bone wedged in their teeth, requiring some intervention on my part. I find that as they become more proficient at eating bone the less they get these bones stuck. It maybe that they also become more proficient at pulling those bone pieces out of their teeth on their own. Strangely enough I have had to rescue a ferret from almost choking to death on a kibble piece...I really have no idea on how that came about, I only know that I found him choking in a corner and pawing at his mouth. I suppose the risk is there no matter what you feed The rats are going, the head is the most nutrient dense of the whole rat, so they're eating the most important part, also the most difficult part to consume (requiring the most work). Poor Skit, it's all a bit overwhelming, she will get there, I have total confidence in her ability to overcome and probably learn from watching everyone else too. I hope that the cough isn't anything too serious, it is the time of year for shedding. My guys are starting to shed big time and I also noticed that the spring colours are starting to show up. Masks are changing, undercoats are thinning up as they prepare for the upcoming summer. I will check with you tomorrow and see how things are going ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 10, 2009 8:43:17 GMT -5
Poor Skit, it's all a bit overwhelming, she will get there, I have total confidence in her ability to overcome and probably learn from watching everyone else too. I hope that the cough isn't anything too serious, it is the time of year for shedding.
Skit likes the mice (she whines if Keller gets one and she doesn't), she just didn't seem interested in the 2-day old half-eaten mouse. Yeah, Oatmeal just finished getting in his summer coat, which is why I'm getting the pumpkin - I've been told (and it's worked well) that pumpkin is great for safely getting the hairballs through the digestive tract. I'll give an update later.
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Post by Heather on Mar 11, 2009 0:05:36 GMT -5
The pumpkin will probably do the trick if it's the start of a hairball. Keep a close eye on them, there is an upper respiratory infection that has been going around. It doesn't appear to affect the humans much beyond a scratchy throat, a bit of the stuffies...so little that it comes and goes barely noticeable...ferts that's a different matter. It's highly contageous and seems to go through the businesses like wildfire and really knocks the stuffing out of them. Of my 16...12 came down with it. It lasts about 10 to 14 days. I noticed the same symptoms popping up across the boards, so watch your little ones. Skit's got it right, someone ate the choice parts and left her with the tails... I will check in with you tomorrow to see how things are going. Good luck with the pumpkin. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 11, 2009 11:06:09 GMT -5
Added the pumpkin, and I'm starting to see rather large hairballs in poo, so hopefully that was the issue, and not the URI you mentioned. Also, I've decided to only give Keller mice/rats and the end of the day, when I put them up in their cage. Otherwise the rats end up in a dresser drawer. I didn't realize there was even one in there yesterday until I smelled it while cleaning (UGH!). I also shook out ALL of the bedding this morning before letting them out, so I wouldn't find that he had transferred last night's snack. No rat, so I hope that will work out. I'm going to stick with my 2:1 soup:meat mix ratio until A) I don't have to hold Oatmeal to make him eat it and B) the others stay almost as long as Keller at the bowl before leaving. Then I'll try adding a bit more meat. Last night Keller (and Skit for that matter) ate some RMB left over from the soup rabbit (YAY!). I've also got some quail thawing. They didn't seem as interested in the duck heart/skin/liver I offered them, and I did cut it up some (I take that back - Skit ate some of the meat-on skin before I cut it, but it looked like she was fighting a giant piece of spaghetti and eventually gave up. I seared it and cut it up for her, but by that time she was done with it) Since Keller and Skit (do you mind if I give updates on the cats, too? I think I noticed you have experience switching cats as well. I'll drop them if you'd rather me stick to ferrets) are more willing to eat raw meat and RMB (still working on organs - nobody likes gizzards too much, it seems), I'd like to cut the kibble completely from their diet. However, Keller sleeps with the other ferrets, who are still eating kibble, and if he finds kibble, he'll eat it (same with Skit). Do you have any suggestions, or do I need to separate Keller from the others?
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 11, 2009 23:15:40 GMT -5
Well, neck, heart, and liver aren't too popular with anyone, it seems - I smeared bits of liver and heart with leftover soupie/ground meat (I think I put too much meat per ziplock bag: it's taking forever to get through the thawed bag and I'm afraid it'll go bad before I finish it). Keller ate the bit of liver, but licked the heart and stashed it away. Oatmeal is the king of spitting out "nasty" food - followed by Llullu. She concerns me a bit. She's supposed to be 2-3 years (according to the vet) - which would mke her the youngest of the 4 - but she seems the least active. She was only just diagnoses with adrenal last month - could that have something to do with it? Aside from that, I'm not having luck getting anyone but Keller to eat chunks of meat or RMB
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Post by Heather on Mar 12, 2009 1:11:23 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear that the pumpkin is doing it's job. The other thing all that hair could be to is from the rats that you're feeding. I've found that my guys poop out a lot of fur when they're eating prey. It really works to help clean them out (the skin and fur act the same as what the pumpkin does, basically cleaning out the hair that they've ingested) I would keep the soupy the way that they like it to begin with, just to build up their confidency and make them comfortable. After that each of the changes should be small enough that they don't really notice that they're being directed toward eating more raw meats. Don't we all have them when we're switching, they're the ones who forever keep you guessing and are so difficult to start. Spitting, gagging and carrying on about having to try to eat new foods. The nice thing is I've found once they decide to go raw they're commited. I had so much trouble with Calypso (one of the little ones turned it at Christmas time). She suffered terribly, missing her people and not eating. I had to force feed her as she wouldn't even eat her kibbles much less the raw. She didn't want anything to do with anyone, was loosing weight and I really began to wonder if I would loose her. Now she's very comfortable eating ground raw, I saw her sample a little bit of chicken neck today so maybe she will actually start eating some whole meats too , she's putting on weight and is presently sleeping on my lap as I type this to you. So even the most difficult can come around, it just takes time and patience. I've never been a big advocate of separating ferrets...they get so attached to one another and quite often get depressed if presented with separation. Does he eat a lot of kibbles when he stays with his mates? or does he just top it up? I would allow Keller to stay with his mates and take the kibbles away when the rest of them are ready to make the final severance. As long as he doesn't regress everything will be ok, it will just take a little longer Has Llullu actually been tested for adrenal or is this an educated guess (I realize that sometimes one goes on a series of symptoms and make a diagnosis from that...tests are too often in error though the Tennessee panel is probably the best but not infalable either ) Do you have plans of surgery? or are you going to treat with lupron or some alternative therapy? I have a furbrat, Loki, who was treated with surgery when he was very young about the same age as your Llullu. He's now 7 or 8 but the surgeons that work for Randy (ferret aid) are really, really good. I don't have that quality of surgeon available so if I have a ferret with adrenal I have to think very carefully. I've not had a lot of experience with adrenal, but lethargy and loss of appetite is indeed a sign of adrenal. Has she been tested for insulinomas? The reason why I ask this could affect how we switch the little one as they require food to be available 24/7. As they get more and more comfortable eating the soupy then you can more and more meat. I find that as they become more used to the taste of meat, even ground they often become more and more receptive to eating whole meats and rmb's. Do you have access to prefab ground raw? Like what's sold at Hare today? This would mean that they could start getting accustomed to eating raw meats with ground bone in it, the correct amount of offal is also already in the mix, so the switch if often totally complete and there is nothing missing in their diet as you try to convince them to eat whole meats. It's just a thought. **Kitties, are you feeding them whole meats or ground meats? They will basically eat the same foods as your ferrets, so switching them is very similar. It sounds to me that your already well on the way with them. It's funny with the gizzards, they either really love them or won't touch them. I will check in with you tomorrow and see how things are going ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 12, 2009 1:58:23 GMT -5
I'm glad things are working out with Calypso! Llullu - educated guess (same as Oatmeal, truthfully - he was losing hair and humping other ferrets when they played). Shortly after I brought her home I noticed that her vulva was swollen, so I made a vet appointment (it was time for Oatmeal's bloodwork anyway, as he's over 3). We've started her on Lupron (100mcg - Oatmeal's on 200 for his symptoms). I'd rather avoid surgery if I can help it, considering the expense and the trauma it puts the ferrets through. She was not tested for insulinoma, but I will make sure that she always has access to food, just in case. I did notice something that I forgot to mention to you before. When I'm rubbing their teeth with meat, they start grinding their teeth. I know that tooth grinding can be related to stomach and/or tooth pain - am I hurting them? Or is it also something they do when stressed? I did get Llullu to eat some bits of duck meat tonight - but only by thoroughly dousing it with ferretone and letting her lick it out of my hand. I had to crumble the pieces so they were licked up " accidentally," then Llullu would nibble on them a tiny bit before swallowing. I also had to reapply the ferretone twice. It was a lot easier than forcing the meat into her mouth, but I don't want to give too much 'tone to them. The ground meat I'm putting in the soupie is actually FROM Hare today . I bought 11 pounds of ground meat, and divided it into 2 5-pound mixes. Right now I'm working on a bag of pheasant, turkey, mouse, goat and rabbit. All have both bones and organs, and the mouse is full carcass. The other mix is pork, salmon duck, beef and mutton. The beef has green tripe ground in the mix. My "leftover" pound is chicken, which came with the sampler, and I ordered it before it occurred to me that Morphia might have a chicken allergy, too. Kitties - I've tried both whole and ground. Skit's the only one who'll touch either, and sometimes she seems reluctant about it. She worked on a couple of pieces of duck neck this morning, but eventually gave up. Maybe the bone in duck is too big. She wouldn't touch the organs I gave her last night (liver and heart) If there is ground food in Anna's dish, she won't even touch the kibble in there. In fact, it was difficult to find even a kibble that she was willing to eat when she first came to us. We tried 2 or 3 different kibbles and canned foods, and each time she would look at it, then at us as if to say "guess again, stupid" As for Morphia, she's puked up so many different "new" things that I think she may be afraid to eat anything but her kibble. Even when I put canned food down, Anna won't touch it and Morphia only licks the gravy off, leaving the meat pieces. I give Anna bits of cooked meat, but it's hard to balance that with having to keep her off the table during dinner
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Post by Heather on Mar 12, 2009 14:46:21 GMT -5
Let's try something. You're putting raw meats in their soupies right? Let's stop for the moment trying to get them to eat meat on it's own. Let's go with just the raw meat in the soupy, put a little down for those that will eat it but lets just leave trying to get them to eat chunked meats. As the meat you're using is from Hare today and has everything in it, let's work from there. I don't like the fact that they're grinding their teeth....that's stress and continuous stress in ferrets leads to horrible things I found it much easier to convert ferrets with their soupy than trying to feed them raw meats straight up. Will any of your guys eat raw eggs? So, let's leave off trying to fight with the ones that won't eat meat on their own or have to have it rubbed on their teeth. Let's add the meat to their soupy and see if we can get them to eat that. Just start with whatever amount you're using now and let's progress from there. I don't use surgeries either. I've found most of the time (Loki is a rare exception and he wasn't in my care at the time, I'm his 3rd rescue and probably his 5th or 6th home so he's living with me forever) that with good supportive care you get as much time or more if you don't do the surgeries (at least you're not out the surgery money and can put that toward supportive care). Either way you're gambling Try the kitties with ground with small pieces of bone, see if they will eat that. I don't know if the duck has a harder bone or not, I'm guessing that it does. Try seering the meat for Hanna and each time get closer and closer to raw. Actually you could do that with both cats. At least you wouldn't be preparing multiple meals all the time. I find that's one of the most difficult parts about multi-creature households . I will check in with you later and see how things are going ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Mar 13, 2009 0:37:56 GMT -5
Yep, raw meats in the soup - but may have overdone it today. Everyone ate some, but there was a lot left over. Gave Keller some small rabbit RMB tonight - about 4 pieces, I think he ate at least 2. I thought raw egg whites were bad for ferrets? And if Oatmeal is allergic to chicken, should I be feeding him chicken eggs? I tried giving him hard-boiled quail eggs when I first got him, but he didn't seem too interested (though I just realized that THAT'S what I didn't put in the soup this time around - I normally do). I'll try giving Anna and Morphia meat next time I cook some. Skit gnawed a bit on some rabbit tonight, so I may just try cutting the meaty bones smaller for her until she remembers how to deal with them (though, come to think of it, she probably didn't run across too many rabbits in downtown Miami - she'd have been lucky to see a squirrel ). I also need to get my knife sharpened - sawing through those bones has got to be dulling the blade Oh, and just to let you know, Llullu seemed a bit more perky today. I played tug of war with her and a towel, gave her a ride on it (which she LOVED - she danced herself in circles over it!), and "tossed" it over her. So either she's starting to feel better, or she needed more stimulation (or both)
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