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Post by Heather on Jan 6, 2009 0:10:15 GMT -5
Hi Guys I feed and have fed raw eggs...the whole thing....egg white and yolk. If you feed too much you will get naked tails....and that will lead you to thinking your little sweeties are adrenal So, no more than 1 or 2 eggs in a week, that way you won't give yourself a heart attack Egg is the perfect food, it covers all the bases Of course to be absolutely perfect...you have to eat the shell . Think about it. Would the polecat sit there in the nest with the egg, splitting the egg and then separating the white from the yolk...then cooking Nahh They'd jump on those little eggs and squish them and then lick them up. I've watched my guys do just this (it's messy to allow them this privelege) I let them have some pigeon eggs and they had so much fun and enjoyed eating them but they had it in their fur, on their feet on each other..... They had fun. Pumpkin is a great regulator. Now, I'm not going to disagree with anyone (I have got into arguements regarding this, so you can read and believe or not your choice Raw feeding isn't a science and we learn as we go. It's what makes us what we are and allows us to cater to our finicky charges I've been feeding a raw diet to all my furbabies for over 10 yrs now. When I first started feeding raw you whispered out of the side of your mouth that you fed raw. Vets wouldn't even talk to you and had been known to refuse to treat your furkids. There were no recipes only hit and misses. Now, we know a little more but it's still a learning process. I have discovered in the last couple of years that veggies though not processed by carnivores do serve a purpose. Ferrets, cats true obligate carnivores shouldn't be fed raw veggies but that being said they can and maybe (note I say maybe) should be fed cooked or frozen and then thawed veggies. I have discovered that pumpkin, squash seem to work as a bulking agent. It's like feeding fur. We who feed by using frankenprey try and simulate what our furbabies would get if they would be eating whole prey. We use bone, meat, offal but we cannot feed the roughage, namely fur which helps move some of the stickier stuff (hairballs, larger bone pieces that aren't disolved by the digestive track) I've found that by feeding cooked pumpkin, or squash (not much 1tsp or so) this appears to simulate the fur and skin. Yes, it only comes out but it seems to allow the food (meat and trace elements) to be better absorbed. One of the unfortunate things about running a hospice type rescue is you spend a lot of time with sick ferts. One of the biggest problems with rescued ferts is stress, leading to IBD and ulcers. I've found that by feeding pureed veggie matter I can help these guys either avoid this problem or ease it. With the sick furbabies, it helps firm up stools and ease tummy upsets and does no harm to the the kids that are healthy. There are many who believe as I do but I too walked the path of obligate vs omnivore, veggies or not. It's only recently after years of feeding that I've begun to walk the middle road. I personally feel that when we feed frankenprey we cannot simulate prey. Only prey can be prey, but if you want to create the benefits then you must add all the components not just the parts that we think we see. I feed ground rmb, whole meats and prey (both live and frozen). Not all my furbabies eat all of the above so I must try and cover the bases that they won't cover. Am I right? I like to think so but....I'm always open to debate Ha, and you thought your head was swimming before I think you will honestly see a firmer poopy if you feed some pumpkin but don't worry that you're going to feed it too long. I too would avoid sweet potato but only because of the high sugar content in them, not because they're a veggie I hope that I didn't add too much confusion here ciao
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 6, 2009 1:30:53 GMT -5
Good Morning Frank! I had quite the day today! A little busy....BUT, I gave Gracie and the boys their soup today. And I put meat chunks in it. They all LOVED it. I think that helped Gracie with the Runny poo. I looked at her poo tonight and it was a little like "pudding" cosistency, than water. :-) So better. The boys are fine. Since I was gone most of the day I left a full size chicken leg and meat chunks in with Gracie, and beef chunks (with hearts and turkey chunks) I seriously don't think they like chicken or turkey chunks.... Of course Gracie (piglet) ate it all--not quite all the BIG drunstick bone but made good progress anyway. All meat was gone :-) The boys knew I put a minute amount of egg shell on the meat...you can guess what they didn't eat.... So I picked up some calcium (w/vit D) that is for Reptiles. Phosphorous free Oyster shell Calcium Carbonate. Could I use this? I read somewhere I could possibly. I've read SO many threads......... I'm going to also experiment with the eggs. See what they like.... Thanks again for ALL your help and great info! D :-)
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 7, 2009 20:53:41 GMT -5
Hi Frank & Heather & Everyone! :-) I just want to let you know, I MAY be making some headway with Tucker at least. I did get some Turkey necks from the store (didn't realize they were so cheap!) and cut a couple pieces to give to the fur kids last night at bedtime. Gracie had no problem, The boys hid theirs. I guess that is a good thing since they think it is a treasure. TODAY I caught Tucker gnawing on the turkey neck! YAY! I played tug with Chuckie and he got some meat off it, and stashed it. He seems to try to eat the old, "jerkyfied", hockey-puck of wings and drummies they stashed where I can't find them. I also picked up some cornish game hen that I cut the legs and wings off for their dinner tonight. We will see how that goes. Gracie still has the runny poo. BUT, I gave pumpkin to all 3 and they LOVED it. I think I am going to sneak the calcium in that for the boys. :-) BTW: Is it alright to give that calcium w/vit D, that is for reptiles? Still plugging along........ D and the fur kids :-)
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Post by suds on Jan 7, 2009 21:03:28 GMT -5
Hi Deb Sorry it took me a little while to get back to you Work has been crazy the past few days. How much are you crushing the eggshels ? the more powedery the better . . Are you useing it in the soup too ? The reptile suplem,ent you got what is the name of it ? Since its not made for Ferrets or cats I would be reluctant to use it Keep in mind pet suplements are not regulated as much as human foods and can contail a good amount of led and other things you would not find in human grade suplements . . I did use Human grade bone meal which is cooked and not as good as bone or eggshells but I used it as a temp additive while switching untill I could get Hershy eating eggshells. Jenifer(mustelidmusk) just postes about this additive www.felineinstincts.com/ which has calcium and other goodies in it which is probly much better to use . how are the meat chunk sizes comming ? Did you try crushing the bone to see if they would try it that way ? how is the tug a war going ?
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 7, 2009 23:29:41 GMT -5
:-) That's OK. You are "the man" this time of year, since it's a bummer when the furnace goes, and noone wants to be cold! :-)
Tug-o-war is going great! They seem to have alot of fun with it. Tho it's a game to them. BUT, I'm sure it's helping. I put Gracie in with the boys tonight, and we will see how they eat etc. If she eats all their food or poos all over, she's back in her little apartment for the time being! The calcium is called "Rep-Cal"--Phosphorous free 100% natural Oyster Shell Calcium w/vit. D3. No other ingredients are listed but those. I don't have many egg shells but what I do have I have tried to grind to as small as possible in my coffee grinder. Yes I did have egg shells in the soup when I originally made it. I do add a little more when I serve it to them. I'm hoping they eat their game hen pieces then I won't have to worry about it to much. Oh, and even tho Gracie still has the runny poo, she is not dehydrated. She drinks ALOT of h2o, but not to much to have to worry about. Fur test = A-OK! :-) I am so thankful I have you to help watch over us! D :-)
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 7, 2009 23:35:41 GMT -5
Oh P.S. Meat chunck size is about 1"x1" or bigger. I don't cut up the gizzards anymore. I figure if they want meat, no bone right now, they are going to have to "work" for it. LOL AND I didn't have a meat pounder hammer thingy--(some cook I am), so I got a small one at the thrift store today. we'll see how well that works....LOL
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Post by Heather on Jan 8, 2009 14:13:49 GMT -5
Just a thought guys. You can ask for ground off from your butcher. This happens when they cut through the bones for roasts or if they have to cut large turkeys in half thing like that. You can add this until your guys eat bone. Do you have access to a small hand grinder? Guess I should say a large hand grinder. Grind some of your chicken necks up and use that in a soupy mix to get the bone into them. Use a regular hammer and pound the cr** out of a chicken neck and see if they will eat it that way (suggestion do not do this in your kitchen...unless you want chicken parts hanging from your ceiling ). I'm not fond of using calcium supplements...there's so much garbage in this stuff (even in the hooman supplements too) If you don't see any improvement in Gracie's poopies after a couple of days of pumpkin, up the pumpkin a little or you may have to get some slippery elm powder (I have recipes if you need them). It still sounds like she's eating more meat than bone but their may be a digestive issue too. Is she eating anything other than chicken?? Good luck, your both doing great ciao
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 8, 2009 15:32:41 GMT -5
Thanks Heather What is "off"? I live in the country and most of the butcher shops around here deal in beef & pork pretty much. They order their chickens, and I couldn't get chicken necks, just turkey necks, so I ordered them. Rabbit?, NO....Lamb?.......No, sardines?..........No.......Quail?........NO........ARGGGGG! Gracie MUST have a digestive issue of some kind. She eats and drinks fine, she's just runny. YUCK! Today she wouldn't eat the pumpkin....... Looks like it's SOUP for dinner. Yes she gets beef chunks, organ meat (chik gizzards, beef heart), she will pretty much eat any meat offered, so that is a good thing. What is slippery Elm Bark, and do I need a recipe? PLEASE On a lighter note, I caught Tucker eating on a game hen wing/leg I put in their dish for breakfast! YAY! Chuckie, looked at me like I forgot his food! I felt so bad........ I think I will give the rmb's for b-fast since that is when they are the hungriest, do the soup or beef/chick chunks at bed time dinner......... That's the scoop so far today.....
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Post by Heather on Jan 9, 2009 2:09:09 GMT -5
When a butcher cuts through the bone there is raw bone meal, or grind off or bone dust (it's not really dust as the marrow makes it wet) that comes off the saw, you can feed that as a bone supplement. I do know how frustrating trying to get supplies is. A lot of people have resorted to ordering on line the supplies they need (there are a lot of online suppliers for the US). I got hooked in with a raw feeding coop and get most of my supplies from them. I found a lady who raises snakes and she raises her own rats to supply her snakes. I buy all the young rats from her. I raise my own mice. It's a matter of searching out suppliers, it's difficult and time consuming but it's worth it in the long run to give your furbabies variety in their food. What about grocery stores? I can get quail or cornish hens from my grocery store. I can sometimes get fresh sardines or smelts (fresh water sardines). I can sometimes get rabbit from either my grocery store or the butcher sometimes brings it in. I can always get quail and rabbit from a pet food supplier Don't get discouraged, you will get suppliers, it's just unfortunately going to take some time to find the right people that can help you Slippery elm dosing info: "For diarrhea, slowly pour 12 oz. hot or boiling water over 1 T. of powdered bark, stirring constantly until mixture is smooth. Add a little honey if desired (dogs only). If constipation is the problem, use only 1 tsp. powder and proceed as above. Note that in smaller doses, Slippery Elm acts as a soothing lubricant while in larger doses, it acts as an herbal “glue†or bandage that the body will use where and as it is needed. To make Slippery Elm Gruel, mix 1 tsp. of the powder with 1 cup water or broth in a pan. Heat slowly to a boil, stirring often (a wire wisk works best for this). Reduce heat and let simmer 2-3 minutes, stirring constantly. Take off heat. Add honey and/or other supplements if desired. Let cool and add to food, or feed separately as a porridge, or by syringe if necessary. How to administer Slippery Elm preparations: Note that the following dosages refer to the liquid preparations described above, not to the powder alone. Slippery Elm should always be taken with water, and since you can’t entice your companion to drink a glass of water on command, always prepare it according to the recipes provided. Having said that, here are some general dosing guidelines for companion animals. Cats: 1/2 tsp. (or 2ccs by syringe) 3-4 times daily until improvement is noted. Dogs: 1 tsp. for small dogs, 1 T. for medium sized dogs, and 2-4 T. for large dogs. Repeat dose 3-4 times daily until symptoms subside. Unused portions of these preparations can be refrigerated for up to 3 days." <http://www.anniesherbals.com/Getting%20started.html> I hope this helps and you find a solution to Gracie's problems. You gave a list of meats that Gracie eats but you don't mention bone. Gracie's stools will not solid up until she gets bone added to her diet, it's the calcium in the bone and the trace minerals that help absorb some of the moisture from the meat. The pumpkin or the slippery elm will help solid up the poopies but the absolute "cure" is to get bone into her. Sounds to me like your guys are starting to consider eating whole meats...that's good congratulations. I will pop in later to see how things are going. ciao
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Post by suds on Jan 10, 2009 9:10:51 GMT -5
Great Tucker was interested in the the Hen . Keep up the good work with tug a war and introducing them to new smells seems they are getting close to wanting to eat the bones. Keep slowly increaseing the size of the meat chunks and trying to sneek the eggshell powder in. For Gracie the runny poo's is a concern you can mix the pumkin up in the soupy if she wont eat it plain. Try and strip some meat off the wings and give her the bones first then after she eats them give her some meat . If she eats the bones and the pumkin and her stools are not firming up some you mite havte to take her to the vet and check her for ece or other parrasites . keep in mind that RAw feeding the poo's are always wet and a rainbow of colors but should not be very liquidy once fiber and bone are being ate. Stress from new enviroment and being with the boys can also cause this but It should not last more then a few days to a week. Like Heather said getting her eating more bone should cure it . I am happy the boys (at least Tucker) is starting to show signs of wanting to eat RMB's I am sure seeing Gracy enjoying them is helping . I was thinking we mite have to start compleetly over with them working from soupy to meat chunks and up to bones but it seems you are on the right track and starting to see some signs they are ready to move on to other foods. Have you tried a mouse yet ? Keep up the good work
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 10, 2009 11:34:41 GMT -5
Hi Frank, uh,......No......I couldn't do a live mouse, and I don't think they would know what to do with a dead one....LOL Yup the kids have me baffled. The boys who don't eat bone have normal poopies, Gracie, who eats LOTS of bone and meat has the runs...... All are healthy, happy, and energetic. I have been giving Gracie and the boys their soup at night, mixed with pumpkin. Gracie decided to boycott that till I had to scruff her and put a glob in her mouth! THEN she realized it wasn't bad! LOL So at night they have been eating soup and large meat chunks of chicken, turkey, beef, or pork. I put the eggshell powder in their soup. :-) I think I may just have to feed them cornish hen and wings/drummies for now to get then used to more bone. That was a good suggestion. :-) I will keep you posted on their progress today! D :-)
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Post by suds on Jan 10, 2009 12:47:11 GMT -5
hehe well I was not thinking about trying a live mouse I know you already said you could not handle it lol. Actually was thinking if you tried a frozen mouse it mite get there instinks kicking in to eat the bones and fur . It can be kinda gross if your not used to it though so be warned. If you decide to try it you can thaw it in the fridge it takes a day or 2 to thaw compleetly ( I put mine in a old margerine container marked pet food so no one see's it and messes with it lol) I have 2 family members here who are totaly scared and grossed out with rodents. after you thaw it put them in a good sealed ziplock baggie and summerce them in warm water not hot the ideal is to get them warmed up to body temp with out cooking them. for the first time cut the tummy a little to expose the meat and put a little of there favorate liquid treat on the mouse (soup,ferratone). You can also get a old pair of tongs and play tug a war to get them interested in it . I am sure if the boys dont eat it Gracie will love it and the fur and bones should help with her runny poo's so it wont go to waste if you decide to try it also being whole prey you can leave it out for up to 24 hours . next time you make soup try this recipe then you can slowly add tiney amounts of bone or rmb's to it gradually , 8 oz of chicken thigh meat (skin included) 1 tsp of crushed, ground up eggshell powder 1 chicken heart 1/2 a chicken liver 1/3 of a Nature Made Fish Oil Capsule (poke with tac and drain) or 8 oz of chicken thigh meat (skin included) 1 tsp of crushed, ground up eggshell powder 1 thumb size peace of beef heart 1 thumb size peace of beef liver 1/3 of a Nature Made Fish Oil Capsule (poke with tac and drain) have a great weekend
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 11, 2009 13:18:58 GMT -5
Hi Frank! :-) The kids just keep me guessing...... They ate their soup last night and a few beef chunks. I had to scruff Gracie to get her to taste again, and she ate it. The boys of course LOVE it, and LOVE when I spoon feed them.....LOL I really think they don't like chicken. They still play tug with the bony pieces., but they also still stash it and now put it in their litter box. I'm sure they are getting some nourishment, because they are by no means thin AT ALL. But Gracie, who eats most everything like a piggie could use more padding! argg! LOL The way they're eating is so unpredictable, since it's chicken w/bone I feel like I am wasting more than they are eating. I've tried all your suggestion and a few others, but they are stubborn--except of course Gracie, I think she eats all the food overnight! Her poo is getting a little better, still not as formed, but not like water. I'm not to worried about ECE at this point. No "radioactive" poo....LOL. BTW, I did try to give them pinkies awhile back when Tucker would eat wings....they didn't quite go for it. I think I would be a little to grossed out to cut into a mouse and stuff it....... As for the recipe, I will be needing to make more soup in about 2 weeks or so. I will have to try your recipe! Thanks! One question, I cook my chicken so the bones get soft enough to put thru my blender then add everything else to the blender as well. Even the water I used to boil the chicken so the nutrients I may have boiled out are still utilized. Is cooking it OK? Raw just doesn't blend easily.....I don't have a meat grinder either, Isn't that just to messy? Thanks for sticking by us! D :-)
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Post by suds on Jan 11, 2009 14:54:43 GMT -5
Well I think it is time to come up with a daily schedule for the next few weeks and stick to it , Consistency will help them get on the program They say ferrets only hide there most pride possesions in the liiter box in hopes no one else will want to steal it lol. they are so close and out of the blue will surprise you . The recipe I gave above are for raw not cooked . you can add water or non salted broths to help thin it out in the blender . Cooked meats loose nutrients even with the broth being used . and cooked bones can be very risky unless you boil them for very long times untill they turn to mush in your fingers . Since they are used to cooked soups you mite have to start mixing raw with it gradualy or you could have hold outs . They are so picky and stuborn at such a young age I am very surprised lol. I think it will be best for you to sit down and make out a basic feeding schedule by the day for the week and post it so we can review it then you will need to stick to it for a few weeks Monday morn - Monday even- Tues morn - Tues even- wens morn- Wens even- Thurs morn- Thurs Even- Fri morn- Fri even- Sat morn- Sat even- Sun morn- Sun even- hang in there you are doing a great job and remember time is on our side
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Post by tuckysmom on Jan 11, 2009 20:42:44 GMT -5
Hi OK I'm game for that. But, how bout I give you my list of what I have and you suggest a "menu" for the week. I like that idea.
Beef chunks -- steak meat, stew meat, roast meat, stir-fry meat. Beef heart chunks, beef tongue (ick), and beef liver, chicken breast meat chunks, chicken gizzards, Turkey meat chunks, Turkey necks, chicken drummies and wings, 1 whole frozen game hen, 1/2 game hen chopped with bone in chunks, chicken livers, and chicken soup cubes. I also have some egg shell powder, and pumpkin.
The kids seem hungriest for breakfast, and Gracie likes to "graze" all day (and all night) being a baby. She likes to eat the boys food they turn their noses up at, or she finds their stash and eats it. (I clean up their stash too, maybe that is why they stash in the litter box......So Gracie can poo on it......They wouldn't eat what they stashed there, would they? EEEWWW!)
So, boss, what do you think? You're the chef!
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