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Post by novemberkris on Oct 1, 2010 20:43:55 GMT -5
Paulie has awful trouble during his shed, so be aware Katt. Jennifer, thanks for adding that because I honestly thought it was just him. I tell the vets and this new one is the first one that didn't seem surprised (maybe he's just seen more IBD). Paulie was rushed before raw into emergency surgery for a blockage that turned out to be enteritis. I'm sure the kibble and his shed just pushed an IBD issue over the edge.
His diet issues are why I turned to raw. Just remember, when you feed the way you do, you have a lot more control over what proteins go in his body. If you've found he's allergic to chicken and beef, you'll definitely want to be careful if you ever add any commercial raw. Many use Beef and Chicken to fill in organ meats. My vet was very happy Paulie doesn't have any signs of beef issues. He likes that I keep him on steady red meat rotation so he doesn't add anymore allergies. (Figures the Bison now causes issues, such a frustrating part of the issue). He hasn't advised me take Paulie of his Pred, but at the same time he is shedding right now, so it would honestly just cause an issue.
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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 5:23:27 GMT -5
Don't panic...it sounds like IBD then. So, now you've got an approx idea as to what you're dealing with. Funky poops seem to be the norm with these furkids, so you just try to keep them as normal as possible. I certainly wouldn't change from chunked meats to ground...you want to change as little as possible but still try and find a trigger. Remove the poultry, if he's allergic to beef then don't feed. What about pork? lamb? He eats prey right? Can you get pumpkin? (I can't remember if you're one of the ones who can only get this seasonally) Stop all veggies except the pumpkin. Very shortly you will be finished the antibiotics, so there's one stressor that will be removed. Don't feed any supplements. Go back to basics. Meat, bone, organ meats. You probably won't get a normal stool until he's off the antibiotics. Neither Ghenghis, or Mischief had normal stools when on antibiotics. If the taste and content didn't throw them off, being forced to eat the medicine did....stress = loose stools Once you get back to basics, feed this way for a couple of weeks, then add a change. It can be a protein change, a supplement...just one thing though, nothing else. Then you wait and see what happens. IBD is frustrating because sometimes you get a reaction and it's not to food, or supplement....it's to an outside stressor. It becomes a trial and error and you learn that there is nothing that you do offers you a solid yes or no. Ghenghis used to be terrible, lovely formed stools first thing in the morning, but by nightfall, he had these horrible liquid green poops. If you weren't aware that he was pooping, you would think it was urine He would go for days and then something would trigger and away we would go again. Mischief's irritation usually resulted in black tarry stools and had to be treated each time. He would usually go for 3 months of really good stools and then we would slide and spend the next month getting him back on track. Mischief ate rabbit almost exclusively for close to 6 months because that was all that would sit on his tummy. We resorted to using supplements as rabbit isn't the best meat to use, but you make use of what will keep things working the best way possible. Just as quickly, he suddenly couldn't tolerate it any more. We can only offer suggestions, IBD treatment is what works for your little one, what worked for one probably won't work for another. Unfortunately, welcome to the world of ferrets ciao Oh why oh why can I not get simple pets? I get an iguana who turned out to be abused and even after two years of work is still a bit of a manic, and now a ferret who seems to have every unsolvable problem (health and behaviorally!) under the sun! Perhaps this is what my parents meant when they told me that when I had kids (in this case "kids" haha) that "it would come back to me ten fold" when I was misbehaving. haha Ok, so what is a good meat to start with? Lamb is...expensive, so I am not sure how long I can feed just that, same for prey, I can only feed so much whole prey because at over $1 a mouse, and then several mice a day...adds up quickly! Then there is poultry, which I am supposed to avoid to start with, and beef, which I think he might (or might not) be sensitive to. Rabbit I can't get atm, same with duck which is poultry anyways...what about pork? Is pork an ok thing to use as a starter meat? I am not sure thought because a) how would I incorporate organs and bones with pork? and b) doesn't pork have a higher tendency towards parasite potential? The ONLY organs I have real access to here are beef and chicken, and then pork kidney...so I am at a bit of a loss... I need to decide by mid week though, as he finished the Metranidazole tomorrow, and the antibiotics not long after that... if I had a garage (and more $ lol) I would gladly set up an entire mouse farm for him, but I can't really do that...I Might be able to squeeze in one more tank of breeders though which will give me a few more mice, but that would be a while before I saw any productivity... So say I start with lamb or pork...how do I incorporate organs and bones, and roughly how many weeks should i feed that before making a change (2...4...6...?). I will include canned pumpkin if I can find that along with the meat. I am going to have to look around for it though because I think one store has it but the others don't...if I can't find canned pumpkin, what would the next best veggie be? Some other type of squash, like acorn or yellow squash? Also, since Halloween is coming, we are probably going to have a pumpkin carving event for premed club. What about feeding him fresh pumpkin? Good idea, bad idea...? I know I am asking a billion and one questions, I'm sorry. I just don't really know the best way to proceed from here... I really appreciate everyone's help and support btw!
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Post by sherrylynne on Oct 2, 2010 9:52:01 GMT -5
Pork is fine now. My guys LOVE it .
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Post by mustelidmusk on Oct 2, 2010 10:53:20 GMT -5
I'm willing to work with you o this as long as it takes to find a workable "solutio" for Koda and you. I know I've put quite a few options on the table, and it's not going to be easy to "ferret" through all this. The first step is to figure out how much Koda eats per day. I need to understand this in terms of VOLUME (not weight). We then need to determine what is available to you. At the same time , you need to work with the vet to quiesce the inflammatory condition, which is a self-perpetuating process. We'll then look at your "Koda budget". Remember, we may find that what he eats makes no difference. Some ferrets do much better on a cooked diet. There'd a huge difference between lightly cooked meat diet and a "scorched" kibble. Do not discard the idea of commercially prepared foods....many IBD ferrets do a LOT better with a small amount of kibble and/or canned foods in the diet. No, kibble is not the best food. However, there's a HUGE difference between eating a little kibble and mostly raw vs. eating all kibble. Besides, many ferrets live full lives on kibble only without getting insulinoma. In fact, one of my vet's clients had a "kibble-only" ferret that lived to be over 13 years old! What we DO know is this...IF Koda remains in a severe and chronic inflammatory state, he will lose quite a bit of ability to absorb nutrients, and the disease will have a strong negative impact on his long-term health and the quality of his life. I'll be happy to work with you on this via pm and/or public posts. We can even start a mentoring thread if you want. I do require that budget info be handled via PM since Even though there's really no risk with disclosing how much you spend on your pets, keeping money matters private is a "best practice" that you'll never regret. Casual attitude with handling money information can result in all kinds of disaster, so I maintain a "no exceptions" to the rule" policy...it's too easy to make seemingly harmless mistakes. Again, I'll be happy to guide you through a step-by-step process. The only thing you need to do is to be VERY honest with you concerns and capabilities, whether they involve Koda's health, budget, etc. Pear2Apple (Christina) and I went through this with Apple, and we arrived at a sustainable solution that worked well for both Christina and Apple. We did most of Apple's work via PM since this was more comfortable for Christina. Frustrating??? YOU BET it is . I think it's what they call "life" Hugs to you, Koda (and the herps too!) -jennifer
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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 12:45:23 GMT -5
Wow Jennifer, that would be Awesome! I think a public thread/mentor thing would be the best because then other people can read and either input if they want, or if nothing else just learn from it. I was planning/hoping to (when I had time) track down all of my older posts about this and kind of link and copy the important parts into a single thread so that anyone reading could see the whole story and get all of the info. I want others who might run into IBD to be able to use this later if they need to. For food volume...how would I accurately track that? Do I need a scale? I guess I'm not totally sure how I'm supposed to measure meat volume, like just get a ruler and measure each chunk every day? I don't really have time for that every day if I'm going to have time to study. lol Also, as far as kibble goes, I really really really do NOT want to feed kibble. That is like extreme last resort, only if I have to kind of thing. I guess I will start with pork as the base diet (with whole prey, the vet said that, since that helps him, I should keep giving a little whole prey each day) , and then, when pork is okayed, add in some lamb.... I could start with just whole prey for a little while, but I could not maintain this diet for an extended time as he'd be eating roughly 3-4 mice a day easy. So I guess that depends on how many weeks I would need to stick to one protein source before adding more... I'm off to call my rodent supplier to see what she charges for live mice vs frozen mice. I certainly wouldn't mind giving him live mice every day if I could afford it!
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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 13:37:13 GMT -5
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Post by Heather on Oct 2, 2010 13:38:08 GMT -5
Sounds like a great idea. Thank you for continuing to post public, this can and is helpful for others who are going to encounter this type of problem. Thank you, Jennifer for assisting. I totally agree with Jennifer too, about taking the whole financial thing onto a pm basis. Privacy is a good policy when dealing with that type of issue. I have resorted to cooked diet, but never kibbles. I did try at the insistence of the vet for Aremis. I had a dehydrated ferret within a couple of weeks. Now, this may have been where his disease was going but I can't help but feel that the kibble helped take him there. Yes, he was still eating raw at this point, we were just trying to get some sort of nutrition into him. At this point in his life we then resorted to cooked. Basically, we created a baby food using our own recipe (I actually helped someone, there's a thread on it) make their own easy to digest, totally balanced baby food for their IBD ferret (he was a rescue and was in horrible shape, they were just going to put him down, he could digest nothing) We did manage to get him eating, feeling comfortable with a good quality of life. He was able to live and play for a considerable time, he even put on weight. He was in advance stages of IBD and his previous owner had ignored all the symptoms (he had been left for almost 6 months without treatment) and then dumped him on the shelter system. He was a foster ferret, I think though he continued to be a foster, he lived out his days with his sheltermom eating his cooked baby food. Good luck, give Koda a big hug, tell him to be a brave boy and eat his new meats ciao
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Post by katt on Oct 2, 2010 13:42:16 GMT -5
Thanks Heather! I'm going to start a new thread then and link aaaalll of Koda's sickly threads to it so that anyone can cross reference them. When I have time I'll pull out the important parts too...
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